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Anyone else just hit their mid thirties and suddenly become aware of agism? Not something that is affecting me, but something suddenly I've become more cognisa

Anyone else just hit their mid thirties and suddenly become aware of agism? Not something that is affecting me, but something suddenly I've become more cognisant about it.

leetrout 7y ago
Yes. I’m also a parent and that was also eye-opening to tech jobs being geared to childless workers.
- nothrabannosir 7y ago
  For what it's worth, my little knowledge of London based tech scene is that it's extremely child friendly. Many companies I've seen have no-questions-asked-work-from-home policies, which in the places I've actually worked at were extensively used for child care and ballet recitals. But I definitely don't speak for "the london tech scene", just for my limited perspective on it. (And I'm not a parent so maybe that's not even what a child friendly workplace makes! :) ).
  - leonagano 7y ago
    What I see, having children affects women the most. Men's salary remains the same, whereas, for women, that has a huge impact
  - user5994461 7y ago
    London is mostly big bank and web companies, they have nice perks and work life balance. Startups are usually the opposite.
    - nothrabannosir 7y ago
      My experience (and network) in London is very start-up heavy, if anything. Maybe this is an instance of startup ≠ startup?
lambdasquirrel 7y ago
I’m ethnic East Asian so there’s this funny thing where I can look older or younger depending on how I do my hair and other things. Yes I have noticed it in a disturbing number of cases. The easiest way to slide past in tech interviews is to look young and answer “stupid.” But even more than that, there’s this uncanny valley where you’re not young enough to be young, but not old enough that people realize you have had seen things go well, and seen things go sideways. It’s uncanny because I find that I have to fight to be recognized or respected in ways that people of European descent (who’ve made it over the hump) don’t have to. All-in-all, there’s a weird denial of age-related things going on in tech.
- jpindar 7y ago
  There's a post right here in this thread that says (only barely paraphrased) "That’s not ageism, younger people really are better".
  - dlphn___xyz 7y ago
    if you cant up-skill then tech isnt a good field for you regardless of age
    - lambdasquirrel 7y ago
      I don’t know why this got downvoted. This is a legitimate concern. You can up-skill for sure. But whether you can be recognized for it, versus treated as the outsider, is another thing. You can have all that skill but it confers no leverage. As Walter Bright pointed out, skill doesn’t mean anything if there’s an industry-wide groupthink biased against age/experience.
  - dang 7y ago
    What post is that?
    - jpindar 7y ago
      https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20252697 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20252697 ('Better' meaning better from the point of view of an employer).
commandlinefan 7y ago
I’m 45 now, and have experienced two job changes in the past 10 years (one voluntary, one involuntary), and although I had some inexplicable rejections - including one where I truly had experience in every single technology in their very long laundry list - I never really thought there was any age discrimination going on. I worry about it, but the situation doesn’t seem to be as dire as I was afraid it could be.
- sverhagen 7y ago
  I'd say, good for you for not blaming it on age discrimination. Hiring is complex enough (and broken enough) to sometimes not get hired, even if you think it was a perfect match. Sometimes it isn't a match, to no blame on either side. I'm not dismissing the serious problem of ageism, just saying there's still plenty other reasons for rejections too.
neilv 7y ago
I started hearing about age discrimination from others, IIRC, when I was in my late 20s, and blissfully unaffected. The first time I recall hearing it, a colleague (very plugged into the dotcom startup scene) was at a big event where one of the more reputable FAANGs happened to have employees doing recruiting. Colleague saw a group of the employees hanging out and chatting, and was appalled by how they were just ripping on one of the people who had talked with them, because he was "old". I got the impression like of a clique of popular high school kids, mocking another student who was "ugly" or "poor", for having the audacity to ask out one of them. I recall being surprised, and thinking badly of them for acting that way, and I don't think I'd heard of that kind of age discrimination in software before. I was aware of a positive "whiz kid" boost people could get, by being skilled ahead of their years, but not a negative bias towards people in 30s and 40s. (The majority of my work at that point had been at a technical software engineering company, where the developers in their 40s tended to be well-regarded.)
ownagefool 7y ago
Not really agism, but I've noticed that companies are super relucant to pay extra for experience. They put their price tag on and think that's the end of it. There's a company local to me that's been failing to deliver on their digital transformation for years because they can't hire the skills they need, but they refuse to interview me based on price, despite the fact it's costing them more to not deliver. I think the market in the UK is a bit different though.
- world32 7y ago
  This mentality is an issue across all age ranges in the UK. For some odd reason employers seem to have a fixed idea of how much an employee should earn for a certain job - and if they can't find any good people for it they usually end up paying more than double to hire contractors. Its quite baffling really. And its not just in IT, I've heard of this same thing happening in social work, medicine, recruitment etc.
  - ownagefool 7y ago
    Most contractors aren't getting paid twice what they can get as an employee, it often works out fairly close when you consider time off, the taxes paid, etc. Shit companies obviously do act that way, but you're better off heading elsewhere, because the same companies don't allow their employees to grow. I'm a contractor myself and made up rates are still a thing. The high end isn't any better than jobs I can see advertising for perms, and many of the companies advertise for perms before they'll consider contracts. There's actually 3 companies that have been looking for my skillset for around the last 3 months, and they all refuse to even have a call with me because I don't fit in the rate bracket, but they'll keep looking regardless.
    - world32 7y ago
      Really? Thats not my experience at all that contracting earns roughly the same as permanent. Why would anybody do contracting if that was the case? Maybe earning double is an exaggeration on my part though. For myself I earn 50% more as a contractor than as permanent (this is the net amount after taxes, holidays, accountant fees etc.)

Anyone else just hit their mid thirties and suddenly become aware of agism? Not something that is affecting me, but something suddenly I've become more cognisant about it.

leetrout 7y ago

Yes. I’m also a parent and that was also eye-opening to tech jobs being geared to childless workers.

nothrabannosir 7y ago
For what it's worth, my little knowledge of London based tech scene is that it's extremely child friendly. Many companies I've seen have no-questions-asked-work-from-home policies, which in the places I've actually worked at were extensively used for child care and ballet recitals. But I definitely don't speak for "the london tech scene", just for my limited perspective on it. (And I'm not a parent so maybe that's not even what a child friendly workplace makes! :) ).
- leonagano 7y ago
  What I see, having children affects women the most. Men's salary remains the same, whereas, for women, that has a huge impact
- user5994461 7y ago
  London is mostly big bank and web companies, they have nice perks and work life balance. Startups are usually the opposite.
  - nothrabannosir 7y ago
    My experience (and network) in London is very start-up heavy, if anything. Maybe this is an instance of startup ≠ startup?

lambdasquirrel 7y ago

I’m ethnic East Asian so there’s this funny thing where I can look older or younger depending on how I do my hair and other things. Yes I have noticed it in a disturbing number of cases. The easiest way to slide past in tech interviews is to look young and answer “stupid.” But even more than that, there’s this uncanny valley where you’re not young enough to be young, but not old enough that people realize you have had seen things go well, and seen things go sideways. It’s uncanny because I find that I have to fight to be recognized or respected in ways that people of European descent (who’ve made it over the hump) don’t have to. All-in-all, there’s a weird denial of age-related things going on in tech.

jpindar 7y ago
There's a post right here in this thread that says (only barely paraphrased) "That’s not ageism, younger people really are better".
- dlphn___xyz 7y ago
  if you cant up-skill then tech isnt a good field for you regardless of age
  - lambdasquirrel 7y ago
    I don’t know why this got downvoted. This is a legitimate concern. You can up-skill for sure. But whether you can be recognized for it, versus treated as the outsider, is another thing. You can have all that skill but it confers no leverage. As Walter Bright pointed out, skill doesn’t mean anything if there’s an industry-wide groupthink biased against age/experience.
- dang 7y ago
  What post is that?
  - jpindar 7y ago
    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20252697 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20252697 ('Better' meaning better from the point of view of an employer).

commandlinefan 7y ago

I’m 45 now, and have experienced two job changes in the past 10 years (one voluntary, one involuntary), and although I had some inexplicable rejections - including one where I truly had experience in every single technology in their very long laundry list - I never really thought there was any age discrimination going on. I worry about it, but the situation doesn’t seem to be as dire as I was afraid it could be.

sverhagen 7y ago
I'd say, good for you for not blaming it on age discrimination. Hiring is complex enough (and broken enough) to sometimes not get hired, even if you think it was a perfect match. Sometimes it isn't a match, to no blame on either side. I'm not dismissing the serious problem of ageism, just saying there's still plenty other reasons for rejections too.

neilv 7y ago

I started hearing about age discrimination from others, IIRC, when I was in my late 20s, and blissfully unaffected. The first time I recall hearing it, a colleague (very plugged into the dotcom startup scene) was at a big event where one of the more reputable FAANGs happened to have employees doing recruiting. Colleague saw a group of the employees hanging out and chatting, and was appalled by how they were just ripping on one of the people who had talked with them, because he was "old". I got the impression like of a clique of popular high school kids, mocking another student who was "ugly" or "poor", for having the audacity to ask out one of them. I recall being surprised, and thinking badly of them for acting that way, and I don't think I'd heard of that kind of age discrimination in software before. I was aware of a positive "whiz kid" boost people could get, by being skilled ahead of their years, but not a negative bias towards people in 30s and 40s. (The majority of my work at that point had been at a technical software engineering company, where the developers in their 40s tended to be well-regarded.)

ownagefool 7y ago

Not really agism, but I've noticed that companies are super relucant to pay extra for experience. They put their price tag on and think that's the end of it. There's a company local to me that's been failing to deliver on their digital transformation for years because they can't hire the skills they need, but they refuse to interview me based on price, despite the fact it's costing them more to not deliver. I think the market in the UK is a bit different though.

world32 7y ago
This mentality is an issue across all age ranges in the UK. For some odd reason employers seem to have a fixed idea of how much an employee should earn for a certain job - and if they can't find any good people for it they usually end up paying more than double to hire contractors. Its quite baffling really. And its not just in IT, I've heard of this same thing happening in social work, medicine, recruitment etc.
- ownagefool 7y ago
  Most contractors aren't getting paid twice what they can get as an employee, it often works out fairly close when you consider time off, the taxes paid, etc. Shit companies obviously do act that way, but you're better off heading elsewhere, because the same companies don't allow their employees to grow. I'm a contractor myself and made up rates are still a thing. The high end isn't any better than jobs I can see advertising for perms, and many of the companies advertise for perms before they'll consider contracts. There's actually 3 companies that have been looking for my skillset for around the last 3 months, and they all refuse to even have a call with me because I don't fit in the rate bracket, but they'll keep looking regardless.
  - world32 7y ago
    Really? Thats not my experience at all that contracting earns roughly the same as permanent. Why would anybody do contracting if that was the case? Maybe earning double is an exaggeration on my part though. For myself I earn 50% more as a contractor than as permanent (this is the net amount after taxes, holidays, accountant fees etc.)