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Well, the question could be asked - "does anyone deserve a million dollars?" Even if we agree that no one should have a billion dollars, where would we draw a l

Well, the question could be asked - "does anyone deserve a million dollars?" Even if we agree that no one should have a billion dollars, where would we draw a line here? half a billion? 100 million? 1 million? 100 thousand? I feel such arguments are so superficial. Billionaires are economical human anomalies. While they are easier to point and say that they are the cause of human greed and they need to do more for the society - IMO, the better question to ask is 1. how can we uplift the bottom echelon of the society and fix the systemic issues that put them in the poverty cycle. 2. Would we shit on billionaires and millionaires less if overall poverty in the world declines? 3. How can government programs become more efficient? I just feel asking questions like 'should billionaires exist' do not push forward the discussion about bringing in systemic changes. Targetting them only gives a superfical understanding of what's wrong and gives an easy way out of the discussion.

VvR-Ox 7y ago
I agree. The main reason for over-population is the lack of enough wealth (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_and_fertility https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_and_fertility) and I think this is important for the ongoing inheritance of poverty. 1. The systemic issue is that there is no one on earth who stops powerful companies and individuals from the reckless exploitation of the poor (and those who really think they aren't poor). No police, no government etc. seems to take care of this issue. Instead the majority of them is just a step-stone on the way for rich entities to gain much more power and wealth. 2. Of course it wouldn't be that obvious as an imbalance. It's a problem of distribution of wealth and the most important thing here is the ratio: - How many poor vs. how many (super) rich? - How much is the difference of their wealth and what consequences occur in their lives because of that? As long as children starve because they don't have food in my opinion it's perverted and ugly that people have money they don't even know what to spend on. From the view of "overall fairness" it's so unfair that it's unbearable to keep that thought in your mind for a longer period if you have moral integrity (most humans have that in some way). 3. Government Programs huh? They aren't designed to be efficiently and they aren't backed by science. That's the case on most places on earth. Govt's seem to be controlled or at least influenced in many dimensions by "big money". When you look around the world, especially at democracies who demand to be democratic (wow!) you'll see the more wealth entities have, the more they can influence any political decision. I don't know how to break this devil's circle but if it doesn't happen I see a lot of (innocent) blood in the near future. There has been discussions about the change of systems, governments and society for so long but the development is not happening in the way some big minds and honest people have hoped for. E.g. everything that can be tagged with "social reforms" will be drowned in pseudo-arguments: * social = socialist = communist (even today you evoke fear with that in most US citizens and also parts of EU) * social = non-productive (no goods to sell); Too many have this micro-economic view and disregard the macro-economic effects * social = expensive when done in a proper way; I could go on with this but it tires and saddens me to even think about it. I had to watch this the most of my life and while the elders had enough to live when I grew up today I see them scavenging in the city. It just get's worse and while this political way doesn't seem to work I think some day we'll reach a critical mass of hungry and angry people who will just take what they deserve.
- cannonedhamster 7y ago
  While I agree with you on 1 and 2, I respectfully disagree on 3. The are many very efficient government programs that function as well as could be expected for such a large system. Voting in the United States, while not always perfect runs mostly clean and efficient. Government run healthcare programs across the world seen to function fairly well. It's not government that's the issue. It goes back to your initial points. Once you have a power imbalance created by either one or a small group owning most of the debt (money) in society, the power imbalance causes corruption. The solution is relatively simple but unpalatable. Once a group reaches a certain percentage, not a specific number, of debt above the median they get taxed more heavily with that money going either directly to the bottom or to programs that benefit all. The percentages are relatively easy too, break the groups into quartiles. The top quartile should not have more money than the next lowest quartile. If more people become wealthier the taxation automatically becomes higher to spread the wealth. To keep individuals from gaining all the power you adjust the number of people based on a bell curve. Those in the top quartile should be very rare, the and as those in the bottom. That's the entirety of the taxation system. It's based on owned debt. It doesn't matter what you spend your money on, or anything like that. Money gets efficiently spread to the middle class and on keeping the lowest portions of society from abject poverty. What the wealthy do with their money at that point doesn't matter because there's a built in check in the system. Punishment for hiding money would be brutal, if the wealthy want to leave, there's the door.
  - VvR-Ox 7y ago
    Ok, so the solution would be to decentralize and distribute solutions to autonomous entities to reduce the size of the system that is directly involved (big system is still the source of money and strategic planning, like in most companies). I think that could work because we know effects like this on groups of people - you can work with 7 but don't try to work with 20 all together. Nice idea to take the debt away again but that can't work in a world where these entities afterwards take refuge in another country that doesn't tax them (so much). EU has some good examples for this: Luxemburg, Netherlands and Ireland. A lot of tax money is taken away in the EU by companies like Apple, Ikea, Starbucks and the likes because they have mastered the skill of using legislative loopholes to maximize their profit and screw the people of the world by taking that money away from the public. That would be the doors you are talking about and the problem is that the nations just don't get together to solve this issue so the wealthy can do whatever they want - they aren't bound by national laws etc. I would like to add one thing to this idea: * Raising the wealth of all people on the globe to the minimum level required to have a "good life" (no starvation, education, lower fertility rate). I think this would solve a lot of problems at once.
eesmith 7y ago
I believe your argument is that we should never have clear-cut legal boundaries on anything where there isn't a clear-cut, justified reason. If I understand you right, you also believe there should be no specific age where people can vote, or drink, or become US Senator. Because what's special about being 18, or 21, or 30 years old? Nor age restrictions on when someone can decide to get married. There should be no progressive income tax, because what's special about each boundary? There should be a gift tax on all gifts, with no special change at $15,000/year - or no gift tax at all. Note that the latter two are meant as ways to address your #1. Getting rid of them requires coming up with alternatives ... and I don't see any good alternatives. I disagree with the basis for #3. I want my government programs to be equitable, fair, just, transparent, predicable, .. and rank 'efficiency' as a far lower importance. And I feel that asking questions like "should billionaires exist" to be important in understanding why it is that, for example, Gates and other billionaires have an outsized, inappropriate, and anti-democratic effect on US school systems.

VvR-Ox 7y ago

I agree. The main reason for over-population is the lack of enough wealth (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_and_fertility https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_and_fertility) and I think this is important for the ongoing inheritance of poverty. 1. The systemic issue is that there is no one on earth who stops powerful companies and individuals from the reckless exploitation of the poor (and those who really think they aren't poor). No police, no government etc. seems to take care of this issue. Instead the majority of them is just a step-stone on the way for rich entities to gain much more power and wealth. 2. Of course it wouldn't be that obvious as an imbalance. It's a problem of distribution of wealth and the most important thing here is the ratio: - How many poor vs. how many (super) rich? - How much is the difference of their wealth and what consequences occur in their lives because of that? As long as children starve because they don't have food in my opinion it's perverted and ugly that people have money they don't even know what to spend on. From the view of "overall fairness" it's so unfair that it's unbearable to keep that thought in your mind for a longer period if you have moral integrity (most humans have that in some way). 3. Government Programs huh? They aren't designed to be efficiently and they aren't backed by science. That's the case on most places on earth. Govt's seem to be controlled or at least influenced in many dimensions by "big money". When you look around the world, especially at democracies who demand to be democratic (wow!) you'll see the more wealth entities have, the more they can influence any political decision. I don't know how to break this devil's circle but if it doesn't happen I see a lot of (innocent) blood in the near future. There has been discussions about the change of systems, governments and society for so long but the development is not happening in the way some big minds and honest people have hoped for. E.g. everything that can be tagged with "social reforms" will be drowned in pseudo-arguments: * social = socialist = communist (even today you evoke fear with that in most US citizens and also parts of EU) * social = non-productive (no goods to sell); Too many have this micro-economic view and disregard the macro-economic effects * social = expensive when done in a proper way; I could go on with this but it tires and saddens me to even think about it. I had to watch this the most of my life and while the elders had enough to live when I grew up today I see them scavenging in the city. It just get's worse and while this political way doesn't seem to work I think some day we'll reach a critical mass of hungry and angry people who will just take what they deserve.

cannonedhamster 7y ago
While I agree with you on 1 and 2, I respectfully disagree on 3. The are many very efficient government programs that function as well as could be expected for such a large system. Voting in the United States, while not always perfect runs mostly clean and efficient. Government run healthcare programs across the world seen to function fairly well. It's not government that's the issue. It goes back to your initial points. Once you have a power imbalance created by either one or a small group owning most of the debt (money) in society, the power imbalance causes corruption. The solution is relatively simple but unpalatable. Once a group reaches a certain percentage, not a specific number, of debt above the median they get taxed more heavily with that money going either directly to the bottom or to programs that benefit all. The percentages are relatively easy too, break the groups into quartiles. The top quartile should not have more money than the next lowest quartile. If more people become wealthier the taxation automatically becomes higher to spread the wealth. To keep individuals from gaining all the power you adjust the number of people based on a bell curve. Those in the top quartile should be very rare, the and as those in the bottom. That's the entirety of the taxation system. It's based on owned debt. It doesn't matter what you spend your money on, or anything like that. Money gets efficiently spread to the middle class and on keeping the lowest portions of society from abject poverty. What the wealthy do with their money at that point doesn't matter because there's a built in check in the system. Punishment for hiding money would be brutal, if the wealthy want to leave, there's the door.
- VvR-Ox 7y ago
  Ok, so the solution would be to decentralize and distribute solutions to autonomous entities to reduce the size of the system that is directly involved (big system is still the source of money and strategic planning, like in most companies). I think that could work because we know effects like this on groups of people - you can work with 7 but don't try to work with 20 all together. Nice idea to take the debt away again but that can't work in a world where these entities afterwards take refuge in another country that doesn't tax them (so much). EU has some good examples for this: Luxemburg, Netherlands and Ireland. A lot of tax money is taken away in the EU by companies like Apple, Ikea, Starbucks and the likes because they have mastered the skill of using legislative loopholes to maximize their profit and screw the people of the world by taking that money away from the public. That would be the doors you are talking about and the problem is that the nations just don't get together to solve this issue so the wealthy can do whatever they want - they aren't bound by national laws etc. I would like to add one thing to this idea: * Raising the wealth of all people on the globe to the minimum level required to have a "good life" (no starvation, education, lower fertility rate). I think this would solve a lot of problems at once.

eesmith 7y ago

I believe your argument is that we should never have clear-cut legal boundaries on anything where there isn't a clear-cut, justified reason. If I understand you right, you also believe there should be no specific age where people can vote, or drink, or become US Senator. Because what's special about being 18, or 21, or 30 years old? Nor age restrictions on when someone can decide to get married. There should be no progressive income tax, because what's special about each boundary? There should be a gift tax on all gifts, with no special change at $15,000/year - or no gift tax at all. Note that the latter two are meant as ways to address your #1. Getting rid of them requires coming up with alternatives ... and I don't see any good alternatives. I disagree with the basis for #3. I want my government programs to be equitable, fair, just, transparent, predicable, .. and rank 'efficiency' as a far lower importance. And I feel that asking questions like "should billionaires exist" to be important in understanding why it is that, for example, Gates and other billionaires have an outsized, inappropriate, and anti-democratic effect on US school systems.