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> always concentrate to the top Your imagination is limited, especially considering that there was no class system when people were painting caves in Chauvet,

> always concentrate to the top Your imagination is limited, especially considering that there was no class system when people were painting caves in Chauvet, nor was there one for the 20,000 years after then. One class of heirs parasitically expropriating from a class of workers is a new phenomenon for humans, over the long term. Capitalism is even more short lived. > wealth...their funds Talk of inanimate things is just an obfuscation of theirs (and yours). There are no signs pointing down from the heavens that some heir owns this or that. It scarcely matters any way. The heirs who do not work have a social relationship with those of us who do work. We work and create wealth, they expropriate surplus labor time from us - if we are carpenters turning $150 of wood and material into $200 every hour, we keep our created wealth as wages in the beginning of the day, at the end of the day we are working only for the heir. They expropriate all the wealth we create toward the end of the day. The important thing is the labor time and social relationship, not the expropriated product of labor. > helping...responsible They have no role in such things. History is replete with revolutions and the overthrow of economic systems. Their role is like the czar and his pretenders in Russia - to receive the bullets and bayonet thrusts of the Bolsheviks who were replacing them.

sdfin 7y ago
Wait. The problem is not that some people is rich. If we agree that poverty is the problem, we can see that capitalism decreased the percentage of poverty in the populations where it was active. It seems you are saying that "the rich are the ones causing the misery of the poor". If it were so, poverty wouldn't have decreased with capitalism. If it were so, you should explain why are there more poor people in countries without capitalism, and why so many people want to migrate to the US and so few people want to migrate to Cuba. https://humanprogress.org/article.php?p=508 https://humanprogress.org/article.php?p=508
- peisistratos 7y ago
  > If we agree that poverty is the problem You must not have read what I wrote. The important thing is the social relationship between those who work and the heirs who don't work and expropriate from those who do. Also, you mention the US, the average inflation-adjusted hourly wage in the US is below what it was in the early 1970s - that is not progress for people who work. > so many people want to migrate to the US and so few people want to migrate to Cuba The migration ratio between the US and Cuba is about what it was a century ago.
  - sdfin 7y ago
    Labor can only be paid at the present value of any foreseeable output. Without the investment of a capitalist there's no foreseeable output. Where there is equality of value there is no incentive to exchange. "Also goods such as the soil, wood in trees, water power, coal beds, stone quarries, petroleum reserves, mineral waters, gold mines, etc. are often the subjects of exchange. And they embody no labor time. How then can Marx explain the exchange value of these goods? Surely the common element that governs the exchange values of these goods cannot be the amount of labor time embodied in them"[1] If you are interested in seeing the other side of your beliefs you might like to read Böhm von Bawerk's refutations of Marx's theory of capital. Are you against inheritance by heirs? Would the State manage wealth better than heirs or than the market? According to what I see in totalitarian states, I believe the answer is no. Anyway, I believe there's room for improvement, I don't think capitalism is the ultimate system. By the way, I think this article is pertinent regarding this topic https://mises.org/library/b%C3%B6hm-bawerk%E2%80%99s-critique-exploitation-theory-interest https://mises.org/library/b%C3%B6hm-bawerk%E2%80%99s-critiqu... [1]https://mises.org/wire/labor-and-capitalist-exploitation-bohm-bawerk-and-close-marxs-system https://mises.org/wire/labor-and-capitalist-exploitation-boh...
lostmymind66 7y ago
"especially considering that there was no class system when people were painting caves in Chauvet, nor was there one for the 20,000 years after then" You're right. The strongest/most aggressive person won. While there was no class systems, there was most likely considerably more bloodshed. I don't think we want to go back to a world like this. "Capitalism is even more short lived." I sure hope not. Forced egalitarian systems usually end up with everyone poor and a few wealthy people in government. I have this theory that the people suggesting these sorts of changes either think they are going to be at the top or just hate their life and want to watch the world burn. While capitalism has its flaws, I don't really think any other system comes even close to pulling so many people out of poverty. "if we are carpenters turning $150 of wood and material into $200 every hour, we keep our created wealth as wages in the beginning of the day, at the end of the day we are working only for the heir." Nothing is stopping you from advertising your services and charging what you think you deserve for your services and keeping all the profits. That's capitalism for you. "We work and create wealth, they expropriate surplus labor time from us" You may be creating value, but wealth isn't comprised of just work. You act as if most companies are providing no value on top of your work, which just isn't the case.

sdfin 7y ago

Wait. The problem is not that some people is rich. If we agree that poverty is the problem, we can see that capitalism decreased the percentage of poverty in the populations where it was active. It seems you are saying that "the rich are the ones causing the misery of the poor". If it were so, poverty wouldn't have decreased with capitalism. If it were so, you should explain why are there more poor people in countries without capitalism, and why so many people want to migrate to the US and so few people want to migrate to Cuba. https://humanprogress.org/article.php?p=508 https://humanprogress.org/article.php?p=508

peisistratos 7y ago
> If we agree that poverty is the problem You must not have read what I wrote. The important thing is the social relationship between those who work and the heirs who don't work and expropriate from those who do. Also, you mention the US, the average inflation-adjusted hourly wage in the US is below what it was in the early 1970s - that is not progress for people who work. > so many people want to migrate to the US and so few people want to migrate to Cuba The migration ratio between the US and Cuba is about what it was a century ago.
- sdfin 7y ago
  Labor can only be paid at the present value of any foreseeable output. Without the investment of a capitalist there's no foreseeable output. Where there is equality of value there is no incentive to exchange. "Also goods such as the soil, wood in trees, water power, coal beds, stone quarries, petroleum reserves, mineral waters, gold mines, etc. are often the subjects of exchange. And they embody no labor time. How then can Marx explain the exchange value of these goods? Surely the common element that governs the exchange values of these goods cannot be the amount of labor time embodied in them"[1] If you are interested in seeing the other side of your beliefs you might like to read Böhm von Bawerk's refutations of Marx's theory of capital. Are you against inheritance by heirs? Would the State manage wealth better than heirs or than the market? According to what I see in totalitarian states, I believe the answer is no. Anyway, I believe there's room for improvement, I don't think capitalism is the ultimate system. By the way, I think this article is pertinent regarding this topic https://mises.org/library/b%C3%B6hm-bawerk%E2%80%99s-critique-exploitation-theory-interest https://mises.org/library/b%C3%B6hm-bawerk%E2%80%99s-critiqu... [1]https://mises.org/wire/labor-and-capitalist-exploitation-bohm-bawerk-and-close-marxs-system https://mises.org/wire/labor-and-capitalist-exploitation-boh...

lostmymind66 7y ago

"especially considering that there was no class system when people were painting caves in Chauvet, nor was there one for the 20,000 years after then" You're right. The strongest/most aggressive person won. While there was no class systems, there was most likely considerably more bloodshed. I don't think we want to go back to a world like this. "Capitalism is even more short lived." I sure hope not. Forced egalitarian systems usually end up with everyone poor and a few wealthy people in government. I have this theory that the people suggesting these sorts of changes either think they are going to be at the top or just hate their life and want to watch the world burn. While capitalism has its flaws, I don't really think any other system comes even close to pulling so many people out of poverty. "if we are carpenters turning $150 of wood and material into $200 every hour, we keep our created wealth as wages in the beginning of the day, at the end of the day we are working only for the heir." Nothing is stopping you from advertising your services and charging what you think you deserve for your services and keeping all the profits. That's capitalism for you. "We work and create wealth, they expropriate surplus labor time from us" You may be creating value, but wealth isn't comprised of just work. You act as if most companies are providing no value on top of your work, which just isn't the case.