9 ms·
YInMn Blue
- saagarjha 7y ago> Under this project, he was particularly interested in synthesizing multiferroics based on manganese oxides. He directed Andrew E. Smith (Subramanian's graduate student) to synthesize an oxide solid solution between YInO 3 (a ferroelectric material) and YMnO 3 (an antiferromagnetic material) at 1,093 °C (2,000 °F). The resulting compound was not an effective multiferroic; it was instead a vibrant blue material. The quintessential chemistry story: someone sets out to make something and ends up creating something useful but completely different by accident.
- CaliforniaKarl 7y agoSee also, Polytetrafluoroethylene (Teflon): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polytetrafluoroethylene https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polytetrafluoroethylene
- vesche 7y agoSee also also, lysergic acid diethylamide (LSD): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_lysergic_acid_diethylamide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_lysergic_acid_dieth...
- OscarCunningham 7y agoSee also also also, mauveine (Mauve): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauveine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauveine
- aidenn0 7y agoSee also also also also Scotchgard
- JoshTriplett 7y agoSee also also also also also Saccharin See also also also also also also Viagra See also also also also also also also Post-It notes (specifically, the adhesive they use)
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- dclowd9901 7y agoWhy does this happen so much? I mean, this is science: shouldn’t chemicals react as they do in theory? It doesn’t seem like it’d leave a lot to chance.
- quanticle 7y agoComputational chemistry involves solving multiple NP-hard problems. There is an increasing reliance on computational models and simulation, but chemists realize that the models are approximations (since it's computationally infeasible to have perfect fidelity simulations). The only surefire way to observe a compound's properties is to synthesize it and measure.
- OscarCunningham 7y agoSurely there can't be any problems in computational chemistry that have actually been proven to be NP-hard? Simulating an experiment atom-for-atom is in BQP, which is not known to contain NP (and is suspected not to contain NP). EDIT: To put it another way, we can't solve NP problems by doing chemistry experiments.
- 0xffff2 7y agoSurely you would need to be modelling at a subatomic level to accurately simulate chemical interactions?
- OscarCunningham 7y agoSure. It's not an essential distinction though, because subatomic physics is also simulable in BQP.
- selimthegrim 7y agoN-representability?
- the8472 7y ago
- inflatableDodo 7y agoGiven that the entire field of chemistry appeared in this fashion from alchemy, I suspect the tradition is very well ingrained by this point.
- jboy55 7y agoThe discovery of artificial sweeteners is rife with this, Saccharin: Chemist working on coal tar derivatives noticed a sweet taste on his hand from contamination. Aspartame: Chemist working on anti-ulcer drugs discovers his finger's taste sweet when he licked them to turn a page. Sucralose: Chemist working on novel uses of sucrose and synthetic derivatives asked a coworker to 'test' a compound. Coworker thought he said, 'Taste'.
- zeristor 7y agoIs the mortality rate for Chemists higher than average? Tasting unknown chemicals can't always end so well can it?
- tempguy9999 7y agoIt's a good question. Reminded me of these entertaining columns: https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2011/11/11/things_i_wont_work_with_hexanitrohexaazaisowurtzitane https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2011/11/11/th... "Say what? I’d call for all the chemists who’ve ever worked with a hexanitro compound to raise their hands, but that might be assuming too much about the limb-to-chemist ratio" They're all educational and very entertaining, even to a non-chemist like myself. Recommended for a chuckle, there are some really awful compounds he covers with wit. Edit 1: original link de-borked. Edit 2: full list of his 'things I won't work with' columns https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/category/things-i-wont-work-with https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/category/thin...
- lifeisstillgood 7y agoJust to give you an idea of why that series of articles was so darn entertaining: a method to make a more stable form of it, by mixing it with TNT. Yes, this is an example of something that becomes less explosive as a one-to-one cocrystal with TNT. Although, as the authors point out, if you heat those crystals up the two components separate out, and you’re left with crystals of pure CL-20 soaking in liquid TNT, a situation that will heighten your awareness of the fleeting nature of life.
- CaliforniaKarl 7y agoFor a small set of other color-related videos, have a look at two from Tom Scott: • "The Library of Rare Colors": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rApTzWboLrA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rApTzWboLrA • "I Can't Show You How Pink This Pink Is": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NzVmtbPOrM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NzVmtbPOrM The latter video makes me wonder: Is there a good way of finding out if a monitor, or even an entire color space, can contain this color? This may be a pigment where you really can't tell exactly what it looks like on-screen, because either the screen cannot display the color or the color space being used can not encode the color (or because the camera sensor can't properly capture the color).
- inflatableDodo 7y ago>Is there a good way of finding out if a monitor, or even an entire color space, can contain this color? You are describing the gamut. You can generally look up the gamut for any decent screen. Also, image editors have gamut warnings for going between colour-spaces.
- sgustard 7y agoA recent thread on that subject: https://twitter.com/panic/status/1106633444157607936 https://twitter.com/panic/status/1106633444157607936
- Darkphibre 7y agoI actually ordered some of this Pinker than Pink! As well as Black 2.0 and a few of his other pigments. I believe what he's doing is mixing in a pigment that fluoresces from sunlight, at the same frequency as the primary visible-spectrum pigment. Thus, more of that frequency of light is coming off the page than the visible light landing on the page. It's pretty crazy to look at in sunlight. Indoor, it's not quite as vibrant.
- mturmon 7y agoLike the optical brighteners that are used in detergents: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_brightener https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_brightener
- wollstonecraft 7y agoWhy do people get to patent the products of federal grants?
- WrtCdEvrydy 7y agoBecause federal grants don't require exclusivity.
- jcranmer 7y agoWhy should you deprive an inventor of the rights to his invention merely because he's funded by the government? Do note that, in these situations, you have to notify the government of your intent to file a patent (and you lose the patent if you fail to do so!), and the government gets an automatic license to the patent.
- dclowd9901 7y agoBecause it was in the public’s interest to fund them and the public should reap the benefits. It should be “open”. I know this is largely a philosophical difference of view, but let me ask you: why should the public fund anything if it doesn’t do anything to benefit the public?
- mbreese 7y agoPatent rights exist because they benefit the public. A patent is a grant of a monopoly of an invention for a limited amount of time. After the patent expires, then the public is free to use the invention. I get what you're saying, but states typically operate on a different time-scale. So, long-term the public definitely benefits. They also benefit in the short term by having access to an invention -- in this case a pigment -- that didn't exist before. The government gets an automatic license to that patent, so there is also that benefit that the government doesn't end up paying for the invention multiple times. The counter argument to your question is: why should I work to invent something if I can't benefit from it? I believe that the concept of the patent is a decent compromise between the two points of view. I don't think that the question of who does the initial funding is necessarily as important. And the Bayh-Dole act was specifically written as an effort to encourage more federally funded research to be made commercially available to the public. Before Bayh-Dole, this compound may have been academically interesting, been researched, published, but then left on the shelf for many years before someone found a commercial use for it. Now, trying to find a commercial use is actively encouraged (or required depending on which tech-transfer office you're talking to). The thinking behind this is that an invention that is available in the market (even patent-protected) is better than an invention that is sitting on the shelf in a lab. Eventually the patent protection runs out and the public gets an even better benefit. But you're right that it's a trade-off.
- myself248 7y ago> YInMn Blue is chemically stable, does not fade, and is non-toxic. I'm calling a big old [citation needed] on a compound that's only existed for a decade. It might not be acutely toxic, but recently we seem to be finding all sorts of subtle effects from compounds that've been in common use for decades. How does one establish non-toxicity?
- nabla9 7y agoYou test it with animals. It's inorganic, has simple structure and contains only non-toxic compounds, so there is no reason to be worried. If you want to worry, direct your attention towards Vantablack and other carbon nanotubes. It has specific target organ toxicity from single exposure and while it does not appear to be carcinogenic it needs more testing.
- fmblwntr 7y agoyttrium and indium are both suspected to be toxic, manganese can certainly be toxic. no idea about the relative doses, I suspect that the chemists certainly thought about this etc, so I'm not trying to say YInMn is toxic, but "inorganic, has simple structure" doesn't mean anything, as it also describes Cobalt Blue, which is definitely toxic.
- weinzierl 7y ago> It's inorganic, has simple structure and contains only non-toxic compounds, so there is no reason to be worried. So is asbestos...
- nabla9 7y agoI knew that someone would reply with asbestos when I wrote that. "simple structure" is there to exclude asbestos. Asbestos is dangerous because it's a tiny spike that sticks into cell. Just like nanotube of similar length.
- zeristor 7y agoThe article makes no mention of how the pigment makes the blue colour.
- s0rce 7y agoIt reflects only blue photons
- beautifulfreak 7y agoIt's due to the "trigonal bipyramidal" lattice structure. By changing atoms in the structure, they've created pigments with a range of colors. https://ws680.nist.gov/publication/get_pdf.cfm?pub_id=921441 https://ws680.nist.gov/publication/get_pdf.cfm?pub_id=921441
- zeristor 7y agoYttrium and Indium are two rare earths, Indium especially, used in displays. Mention has been made that the Indium required makes this pigment expensive.
- zeristor 7y agoAs mentioned in this YouTube video by Seeker, albeit in passing, but credit where it’s due: https://youtube.com/watch?v=lolgjjr8QIU https://youtube.com/watch?v=lolgjjr8QIU
- creeble 7y agoIs it still true that there are no real inorganic red dyes? Or is that ancient history?
- s0rce 7y agoCinnabar is red...
- gimmeThaBeet 7y agoIt may depend on the definition of red, but that doesn't sound true at all. Cadmium red, lead tetroxide, cinnabar, all in use for a hundred+ to even thousands of years. I think where that comes from is that there isn't really an inorganic red that is all of stable, durable, non-toxic, and only then even then good looking. If I remember correctly, once Mas Subramanian sort of stumbled into "I guess I can try to make pigments with these compounds" he's tried making other colors, but sort of the big prize is in finding a good red with properties similar to YInMn.
- creeble 7y ago>>stable, durable, non-toxic, and only then even then good looking. Yes, I think that was the combination. I was thinking in particular red car paint -- it was only organic compounds through the early 2000's, and therefore all of it fades.
- a1369209993 7y ago> It may depend on the definition of red, [...] Cadmium red, lead tetroxide, cinnabar For that matter, iron oxide (rust) technically qualifies.
- neonate 7y agoHere's a nice interview with the discoverer: https://news.artnet.com/art-world/chemist-mas-subramanian-on-the-incredible-discovery-of-yinmn-blue-973700 https://news.artnet.com/art-world/chemist-mas-subramanian-on...
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- zeristor 7y agoYInMn is supposed to have high NIR reflectivity useful on a sunny roof. The Apollo 11 Lunar Module used gold foil to reflect heat, I suppose future vehicles could have a brilliant blue foil, apt for Blur Origin. I liked how the lunar module used gold foil, and Apollo the Greek god was the Sun deity; gold often used to represent the Sun.
- the8472 7y agoIf all you need is IR reflection for a building then TiO2 based paint will do the job and is much cheaper. The advantage of YInMn is that it also provides color.
- zeristor 7y agoUnder properties one an see the reflectivity and whilst far better than Cobalt blue, its a long way from Gold and silver: https://colourlex.com/project/yinmn-blue/ https://colourlex.com/project/yinmn-blue/
- jamhan 7y agoIt wasn't gold foil: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapton https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapton
- pacificmint 7y agoNPR had a good article about the discovery: "A Chemist Accidentally Creates A New Blue. Then What?" [1] [1] https://www.npr.org/2016/07/16/485696248/a-chemist-accidentally-creates-a-new-blue-then-what https://www.npr.org/2016/07/16/485696248/a-chemist-accidenta...
- viewtransform 7y agoThis blue pigment is used on the shrouds of AMD Radeon Pro graphics cards. https://www.amd.com/en/graphics/workstations https://www.amd.com/en/graphics/workstations
- broahmed 7y agoHere's a great article about the discovery of this color, and the pigment industry in general, which hit the front page of HN a year ago: The Quest for the Next Billion-Dollar Color https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2018-quest-for-billion-dollar-red/ https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2018-quest-for-billion-do... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16870440 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16870440
- joshu 7y agoApparently it costs $1k/kg right now, if it were even available.
- bpicolo 7y ago> https://www.shepherdcolor.com/products/yinmn/ https://www.shepherdcolor.com/products/yinmn/ Looks like it hasn't received approval for commercial sale yet. Presumably some health / safety entity?
- zeristor 7y agoIndium looks to cost $5 a gram, twice the price of silver, although it’s supposed to be as ubundant
- kortex 7y agoThat's cheap by pharmaceutical standards and expensive by pigment standards. About right for exotic engineering applications though.
- del_operator 7y agoReminds me of the story of how Lithium was initially thought help “brain gout” by dissolving uric crystals, but it still ended up working. Read an interesting story of a physicist that got curious about it. https://www.quantamagazine.org/a-new-spin-on-the-quantum-brain-20161102/ https://www.quantamagazine.org/a-new-spin-on-the-quantum-bra...