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I've written about some of the brilliant people I know who suffered at least one episode of burnout: ----------------------------- As I’ve gone through my 30s

I've written about some of the brilliant people I know who suffered at least one episode of burnout: ----------------------------- As I’ve gone through my 30s and 40s, I’ve been surprised at how many of my friends have suffered some kind of burnout. In fact, between the ages of 15 and 45, I would say that everyone I know personally has had at least one bad year. Back when I was in school, it seemed like some people were reliably happy, and other people were reliably depressed. And yes, many of those personality traits turned out to be consistent over several decades. But it was a surprise to realize that even the happiest people could fall into a dark spot. Some people are highly resilient, but no one is infinitely resilient. Depression can end your career, end your marriage, and end your life. But long before most people find themselves facing a serious depression, they typically pass through an earlier stage, more mild and more subtle. What if we could all catch ourselves at that earlier stage? I’m talking about burnout. Perhaps we can think of it as the mildest form of depression, or a mid-point between true mental health and outright depression. How do we identify something so subtle? Specific anecdotes are useful, because people need to be able to hear a story similar to what they are going through. http://www.smashcompany.com/philosophy/burnout-is-universal-but-the-right-kind-of-sleep-food-and-exercise-helps http://www.smashcompany.com/philosophy/burnout-is-universal-...

dbcurtis 7y ago
I don't see it that way. I have been severely burned-out, and will never let that happen again. I have also been visited by the Black Dog. They are different. Perhaps both present in some people, so maybe hard to tease apart. The cure for burn out is to cut out any activities that do not bring personal joy and satisfaction. (My burn-out was cured by a few months off pursuing my hobbies. Yes, I was lucky to have that option.) The thing about depression is that nothing brings joy or satisfaction. Burn-out and depression are orthogonal. But IMO you must cure depression first, before trying to address burn out, if both are present.
- taurath 7y ago
  Just my perspective as a long-time depression sufferer who's also had burnout: Burnout can lead to both chronic chemical and acute situational depression, and they're different. The chronic chemical depression is an overall downregulation that can be very difficult to get out of. Having to or choosing to stick around in bad situations for long periods of time causes the chronic version.
- arcticbull 7y ago
  > The cure for burn out is to cut out any activities that do not bring personal joy and satisfaction. That, and giving yourself a series of small tasks, each of which you can complete easily. That feeling of satisfaction that you obtain by completing these small tasks quickly turns into your emotional ability to complete bigger and bigger tasks, and before you know it, you're back on the horse. It's amazing how effective this is, it's been documented here before too. I'll see if I can dig out where I first read this.
  - Xcelerate 7y ago
    I’d be interested in hearing more about this. I often get the “so much stuff to do that it’s overwhelming” feeling, which creates an unproductive feedback cycle.
    - dbcurtis 7y ago
      Consider spending more time deciding what not to do. Say "no". Delegate, both up, and down. Try the "rocking chair test", which is asking yourself, "When I am sitting on the porch of the old-folks home in my rocking chair, looking back on my life, what are the chances I will say: 'I wish I had spent one more day of my life doing X.'" -- Where X is that thing that seems soooo important to your boss/coworkers today. Tremendously clarifying. For me, learning to delegate was a battle against my perfectionist tendencies. "But that's not they way I would have done it." Yup. When you delegate, people do it their way. To me the key was learning to parse out what is it that I care deeply about, and what not so much. Be sure the things you care deeply about are in the spec, and let go of the things that are not so important. Make time for yourself. I am a ham radio operator, so for me spending a few days in the sun butchering a pile of aluminum tube to make antennas cures many ills. That is unlikely to be a universal prescription -- find yours.
      - allthecybers 7y ago
        If I could double upvote this I would. My most recent encounters with burnout were a result of taking on too many projects to check boxes on a promotion. I found it helped my optimism when I chased personal development over projects that I really didn't care much about. Handing everything off made me feel better, was strategic from a leadership development position and gave me the extra time to concentrate on my own interests and development. Saying "no" is a forgotten method of self-preservation.
- opportune 7y ago
  I agree with your post a lot and made another comment before I saw it. I think comparing burnout to depression indicates a lack of understanding of what depression really is. One of the greatest differences, which you mention, is that burnout has a pretty straightforward treatment which is to remove yourself from the work that you are burnt out from.
- jnwatson 7y ago
  For me, burn out was like heat stroke. One instance was enough to make me hypersensitive to overwork for the rest of my life.
ido 7y ago
and what happens when you identify it?
opportune 7y ago
I don't think burnout and depression are really the same thing. They exhibit similar traits and can have similar symptoms, but so can the cold, the flu, and bacterial meningitis. For example there are lots of depressed people who aren't burnt out and are highly productive, you just don't know about them because most people understand depression as being unmotivated and in a bad mood most of the time (which is not at all a comprehensive understanding of it). There are lots of burnt out people who aren't depressed either, they are maybe just disenchanted with what they've been working on and need an extended break; their bad mood isn't intrinsic so much as it is a reaction to working on something they've grown to dislike. Of course burnout and depression can coincide but I would guess that in that case it is more likely to just be misattributed depression. I don't want to gatekeep depression but I don't think working a lot on something you dislike and consequently needing a break or to move on to working on something else (what I understand to be burnout) is depression. For example I hate cleaning things, both household cleaning and dishes, so if I were to force myself to clean 60 hours a week I would quickly feel burnt out but I wouldn't really be depressed.
Bakary 7y ago
I wonder if burnout isn't the result of your brain associating work with failure or some other deep-seated negative emotion. I've noticed that I can get my brain back on the right track by completing a few tasks that have a high probability of success and a clearer link between effort and reward. I devised this plan on the basis that working for nothing seemed to be the crucial factor.
- chrshawkes 7y ago
  What is the explanation when burnout follows success? I've personally seen that as well.
  - Bakary 7y ago
    I was unaware that was possible! I'd say maybe the brain devalues the rewards or finds the work unnecessary once success is achieved?
- noxToken 7y ago
  >I wonder if burnout isn't the result of your brain associating work with failure Failure is definitely not a requirement. I was very successful in my last career. I was working 60 hours at the bare minimum with non-stressful things in stressful deadlines. I was akin to a supervisor with a great team in my corner. Performance at my level and below was never an issue, and every single one of my juniors was 100% dependable. Management above me - in spite of one director who kicked ass at everything - and the culture in general sucked. I was tired of excelling at a place where no one valued my contributions. Not in a, "give me money and awards" way, but in a "can you not treat your most valuable employees like complete dirt?"
  - lazyjones 7y ago
    Your brain might have associated work with failure to obtain what you were sacrificing in order to work 60 hours, i.e. entertainment, play, love, family, health... (guessing).

dbcurtis 7y ago

I don't see it that way. I have been severely burned-out, and will never let that happen again. I have also been visited by the Black Dog. They are different. Perhaps both present in some people, so maybe hard to tease apart. The cure for burn out is to cut out any activities that do not bring personal joy and satisfaction. (My burn-out was cured by a few months off pursuing my hobbies. Yes, I was lucky to have that option.) The thing about depression is that nothing brings joy or satisfaction. Burn-out and depression are orthogonal. But IMO you must cure depression first, before trying to address burn out, if both are present.

taurath 7y ago
Just my perspective as a long-time depression sufferer who's also had burnout: Burnout can lead to both chronic chemical and acute situational depression, and they're different. The chronic chemical depression is an overall downregulation that can be very difficult to get out of. Having to or choosing to stick around in bad situations for long periods of time causes the chronic version.
arcticbull 7y ago
> The cure for burn out is to cut out any activities that do not bring personal joy and satisfaction. That, and giving yourself a series of small tasks, each of which you can complete easily. That feeling of satisfaction that you obtain by completing these small tasks quickly turns into your emotional ability to complete bigger and bigger tasks, and before you know it, you're back on the horse. It's amazing how effective this is, it's been documented here before too. I'll see if I can dig out where I first read this.
- Xcelerate 7y ago
  I’d be interested in hearing more about this. I often get the “so much stuff to do that it’s overwhelming” feeling, which creates an unproductive feedback cycle.
  - dbcurtis 7y ago
    Consider spending more time deciding what not to do. Say "no". Delegate, both up, and down. Try the "rocking chair test", which is asking yourself, "When I am sitting on the porch of the old-folks home in my rocking chair, looking back on my life, what are the chances I will say: 'I wish I had spent one more day of my life doing X.'" -- Where X is that thing that seems soooo important to your boss/coworkers today. Tremendously clarifying. For me, learning to delegate was a battle against my perfectionist tendencies. "But that's not they way I would have done it." Yup. When you delegate, people do it their way. To me the key was learning to parse out what is it that I care deeply about, and what not so much. Be sure the things you care deeply about are in the spec, and let go of the things that are not so important. Make time for yourself. I am a ham radio operator, so for me spending a few days in the sun butchering a pile of aluminum tube to make antennas cures many ills. That is unlikely to be a universal prescription -- find yours.
    - allthecybers 7y ago
      If I could double upvote this I would. My most recent encounters with burnout were a result of taking on too many projects to check boxes on a promotion. I found it helped my optimism when I chased personal development over projects that I really didn't care much about. Handing everything off made me feel better, was strategic from a leadership development position and gave me the extra time to concentrate on my own interests and development. Saying "no" is a forgotten method of self-preservation.
opportune 7y ago
I agree with your post a lot and made another comment before I saw it. I think comparing burnout to depression indicates a lack of understanding of what depression really is. One of the greatest differences, which you mention, is that burnout has a pretty straightforward treatment which is to remove yourself from the work that you are burnt out from.
jnwatson 7y ago
For me, burn out was like heat stroke. One instance was enough to make me hypersensitive to overwork for the rest of my life.

ido 7y ago

and what happens when you identify it?

opportune 7y ago

I don't think burnout and depression are really the same thing. They exhibit similar traits and can have similar symptoms, but so can the cold, the flu, and bacterial meningitis. For example there are lots of depressed people who aren't burnt out and are highly productive, you just don't know about them because most people understand depression as being unmotivated and in a bad mood most of the time (which is not at all a comprehensive understanding of it). There are lots of burnt out people who aren't depressed either, they are maybe just disenchanted with what they've been working on and need an extended break; their bad mood isn't intrinsic so much as it is a reaction to working on something they've grown to dislike. Of course burnout and depression can coincide but I would guess that in that case it is more likely to just be misattributed depression. I don't want to gatekeep depression but I don't think working a lot on something you dislike and consequently needing a break or to move on to working on something else (what I understand to be burnout) is depression. For example I hate cleaning things, both household cleaning and dishes, so if I were to force myself to clean 60 hours a week I would quickly feel burnt out but I wouldn't really be depressed.

Bakary 7y ago

I wonder if burnout isn't the result of your brain associating work with failure or some other deep-seated negative emotion. I've noticed that I can get my brain back on the right track by completing a few tasks that have a high probability of success and a clearer link between effort and reward. I devised this plan on the basis that working for nothing seemed to be the crucial factor.

chrshawkes 7y ago
What is the explanation when burnout follows success? I've personally seen that as well.
- Bakary 7y ago
  I was unaware that was possible! I'd say maybe the brain devalues the rewards or finds the work unnecessary once success is achieved?
noxToken 7y ago
>I wonder if burnout isn't the result of your brain associating work with failure Failure is definitely not a requirement. I was very successful in my last career. I was working 60 hours at the bare minimum with non-stressful things in stressful deadlines. I was akin to a supervisor with a great team in my corner. Performance at my level and below was never an issue, and every single one of my juniors was 100% dependable. Management above me - in spite of one director who kicked ass at everything - and the culture in general sucked. I was tired of excelling at a place where no one valued my contributions. Not in a, "give me money and awards" way, but in a "can you not treat your most valuable employees like complete dirt?"
- lazyjones 7y ago
  Your brain might have associated work with failure to obtain what you were sacrificing in order to work 60 hours, i.e. entertainment, play, love, family, health... (guessing).