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> govt run mobile payments infrastructure that is literally a free Stripe+Paypal+Venmo+Alipay UPI or Unified Payments Interface. I cannot stress how innovativ

by inapis 7y ago

> govt run mobile payments infrastructure that is literally a free Stripe+Paypal+Venmo+Alipay UPI or Unified Payments Interface. I cannot stress how innovative this payment mode is. * No risk of fraud (can't approve a transaction without a PIN on your mobile) - fraud as in card cloning, malware infected websites running off with card details. Does not preclude social engineering where users fall into clever tricks. * no privacy issues yet (money is directly debited from account without a mastercard/visa involved) * anyone can make a UPI app (all banks have their own, Google Pay, Paytm, PhonePe etc) * no cards to duplicate * you can manage multiple VPAs on one account, so I can create different identities for different purposes all debiting money from one account. Exceptions - UPI still doesn't support recurring payments or subscriptions and some other cases. But as a regular consumer, I find plastic outdated. I've never used WeChat/AliPay so can't comment on that but the only time I have to use a credit card is when I have to pay international companies (DO, GSuite etc) in USD/EUR. EDIT - expanded on kinds of fraud.

signal11 7y ago
> no privacy issues yet (money is directly debited from account without a mastercard/visa involved) Isn’t Aadhar (fingerprints + iris scan) needed to have a bank account? If yes, then it’s a bit disingenuous to say there are no privacy issues. > No risk of fraud A cursory search will show plenty of press articles re UPI fraud. For instance [1]. [1] https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/business/personal-finance/defrauded-while-transferring-money-using-upi-apps-such-as-bhim-google-pay-or-phonepe-here-is-what-you-should-do-next-4097321.html https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/business/personal-finance/...
- type-2 7y ago
  you don't need an aadhar card to open a bank account only a pan card(no biometrics) issued by tax dept, which you can link with your aadhar card by your own choice. The govt wants you to do this but the caanot force you as the supreme court has said.
  - signal11 7y ago
    According to the Supreme Court ruling, "the Aadhaar number must still be quoted to file income tax returns and apply for a personal account number (PAN)."[1] [1] https://qz.com/india/1351263/supreme-court-verdict-how-indias-aadhaar-id-became-mandatory/ https://qz.com/india/1351263/supreme-court-verdict-how-india... This is just one source but there's lot of others reporting the same thing. Do you have a citation that says otherwise?
    - type-2 7y ago
      I don't have a aadhar card yet and I don't intend to get one. I have a pan card but I had it made a few years ago. I am not aware if things have changed, I'll ask around tomorrow for ground information.
      - wtmt 7y ago
        Avoid getting it for as long as you can hold out. If you’re not reliant on government subsidies, the only coercion now is to link it with PAN and also quote it in the tax returns. If you can afford the penalty for late filing of tax returns, go for that. There are still several review petitions against last year’s verdict on Aadhaar. The Supreme Court, as usual, is delaying hearing those. Check out no2uid on Twitter, rethinkaadhaar.in and others.
- inapis 7y ago
  >Isn’t Aadhar (fingerprints + iris scan) needed to have a bank account? If yes, then it’s a bit disingenuous to say there are no privacy issues. Nopes. Govt tried really hard. Attorney General didn't really sound far from Facebook's primary lawyer. But Supreme Court shut it down. >A cursory search will show plenty of press articles re UPI fraud. For instance [1]. I should expand that I meant technical fraud - your card being cloned on a PoS, or a malware infected website siphoning card details, lax controls by card issuers etc (Amex is notorious for approving payments with just the card number and CVV) Stuff like this is hard on UPI BUT it is isn't idiot proof. You can't really make a system secure when the human victim willingly hands over information as was alluded by your link.
  - signal11 7y ago
    I believe Aadhar is mandatory if you're filing tax in India[1]. And the government earlier in the year passed a bill to undo some of the supreme court protections and facilitate sharing of Aadhar data with third parties[2]. So unless you're too poor to file taxes (or are not an Indian resident), bank accounts can always be linked to Aadhar, even if it happens via the PAN. [1] https://qz.com/india/1351263/supreme-court-verdict-how-indias-aadhaar-id-became-mandatory/ https://qz.com/india/1351263/supreme-court-verdict-how-india... [2] https://www.livemint.com/Opinion/jmxPkXXGWeEfiAsCsA1xnO/Opinion--The-Aadhaar-amendment-and-private-sector-access.html https://www.livemint.com/Opinion/jmxPkXXGWeEfiAsCsA1xnO/Opin... Re Aadhar -- HN readers should note that IndiaStack (indiastack.org, very popular with VCs operating in India) relies a lot on Aadhar, so a lot of people in Indian Startups have a financial interest in not seeing the downsides of Aadhar.
    - inapis 7y ago
      You're moving goal posts. Aadhar being necessary for tax filing !== Aadhar is mandatory for operating a bank account, claims which you made in previous posts. Yes, going backwards government can indeed find your bank accounts because you might quote them on tax forms but having Aadhar is NOT necessary for operating a bank account. I have multiple accounts, none of which have been closed or service being denied for lack of an aadhar number. >Re Aadhar -- HN readers should note that IndiaStack (indiastack.org, very popular with VCs operating in India) relies a lot on Aadhar, so a lot of people in Indian Startups have a financial interest in not seeing the downsides of Aadhar. This is exaggerated. People can lead perfectly functional lives without quoting Aadhar to anybody except the taxman. You're pushing it.

by inapis 7y ago

signal11 7y ago

> no privacy issues yet (money is directly debited from account without a mastercard/visa involved) Isn’t Aadhar (fingerprints + iris scan) needed to have a bank account? If yes, then it’s a bit disingenuous to say there are no privacy issues. > No risk of fraud A cursory search will show plenty of press articles re UPI fraud. For instance [1]. [1] https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/business/personal-finance/defrauded-while-transferring-money-using-upi-apps-such-as-bhim-google-pay-or-phonepe-here-is-what-you-should-do-next-4097321.html https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/business/personal-finance/...

type-2 7y ago
you don't need an aadhar card to open a bank account only a pan card(no biometrics) issued by tax dept, which you can link with your aadhar card by your own choice. The govt wants you to do this but the caanot force you as the supreme court has said.
- signal11 7y ago
  According to the Supreme Court ruling, "the Aadhaar number must still be quoted to file income tax returns and apply for a personal account number (PAN)."[1] [1] https://qz.com/india/1351263/supreme-court-verdict-how-indias-aadhaar-id-became-mandatory/ https://qz.com/india/1351263/supreme-court-verdict-how-india... This is just one source but there's lot of others reporting the same thing. Do you have a citation that says otherwise?
  - type-2 7y ago
    I don't have a aadhar card yet and I don't intend to get one. I have a pan card but I had it made a few years ago. I am not aware if things have changed, I'll ask around tomorrow for ground information.
    - wtmt 7y ago
      Avoid getting it for as long as you can hold out. If you’re not reliant on government subsidies, the only coercion now is to link it with PAN and also quote it in the tax returns. If you can afford the penalty for late filing of tax returns, go for that. There are still several review petitions against last year’s verdict on Aadhaar. The Supreme Court, as usual, is delaying hearing those. Check out no2uid on Twitter, rethinkaadhaar.in and others.
inapis 7y ago
>Isn’t Aadhar (fingerprints + iris scan) needed to have a bank account? If yes, then it’s a bit disingenuous to say there are no privacy issues. Nopes. Govt tried really hard. Attorney General didn't really sound far from Facebook's primary lawyer. But Supreme Court shut it down. >A cursory search will show plenty of press articles re UPI fraud. For instance [1]. I should expand that I meant technical fraud - your card being cloned on a PoS, or a malware infected website siphoning card details, lax controls by card issuers etc (Amex is notorious for approving payments with just the card number and CVV) Stuff like this is hard on UPI BUT it is isn't idiot proof. You can't really make a system secure when the human victim willingly hands over information as was alluded by your link.
- signal11 7y ago
  I believe Aadhar is mandatory if you're filing tax in India[1]. And the government earlier in the year passed a bill to undo some of the supreme court protections and facilitate sharing of Aadhar data with third parties[2]. So unless you're too poor to file taxes (or are not an Indian resident), bank accounts can always be linked to Aadhar, even if it happens via the PAN. [1] https://qz.com/india/1351263/supreme-court-verdict-how-indias-aadhaar-id-became-mandatory/ https://qz.com/india/1351263/supreme-court-verdict-how-india... [2] https://www.livemint.com/Opinion/jmxPkXXGWeEfiAsCsA1xnO/Opinion--The-Aadhaar-amendment-and-private-sector-access.html https://www.livemint.com/Opinion/jmxPkXXGWeEfiAsCsA1xnO/Opin... Re Aadhar -- HN readers should note that IndiaStack (indiastack.org, very popular with VCs operating in India) relies a lot on Aadhar, so a lot of people in Indian Startups have a financial interest in not seeing the downsides of Aadhar.
  - inapis 7y ago
    You're moving goal posts. Aadhar being necessary for tax filing !== Aadhar is mandatory for operating a bank account, claims which you made in previous posts. Yes, going backwards government can indeed find your bank accounts because you might quote them on tax forms but having Aadhar is NOT necessary for operating a bank account. I have multiple accounts, none of which have been closed or service being denied for lack of an aadhar number. >Re Aadhar -- HN readers should note that IndiaStack (indiastack.org, very popular with VCs operating in India) relies a lot on Aadhar, so a lot of people in Indian Startups have a financial interest in not seeing the downsides of Aadhar. This is exaggerated. People can lead perfectly functional lives without quoting Aadhar to anybody except the taxman. You're pushing it.