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Trump is a sort of left leaning libertarian. He doesn't align socially or fiscally with the Republican Party on any issue other than perhaps abortion and it's

by jki275 7y ago

Trump is a sort of left leaning libertarian. He doesn't align socially or fiscally with the Republican Party on any issue other than perhaps abortion and it's an easy argument to make that he changed that position solely to get the evangelical vote so he could get the nomination. He could have credibly run as a Democrat, probably won the nomination, and had the Democrats singing his praises now. His policies on immigration align with Clinton, Obama, Schumer and others from less than ten years ago. He's to the left of both of the Clintons on prison reform. He's to the left of both of the Clintons and Obama on gay marriage (well, Hillary changed her position two years ago, but otherwise). He's to the left of Bill on fiscal responsibility. etc. I could go on.

mikeash 7y ago
Libertarian, really? Since when do libertarians lock people up without trial, advocate against free speech, and vastly bloat government spending?
- jki275 7y ago
  I’m confused, I wasn’t talking about the Obama administration.
  - mikeash 7y ago
    Are you somehow under the impression that Trump hasn't done this, or are you trying to make the blindingly obvious argument that Obama wasn't a libertarian?
dragonwriter 7y ago
> Trump is a sort of left leaning libertarian. Trump is a corrupt, opportunist that is probably more of a kleptocrat than having any coherent ideology, but the Trump Administration is a right-wing authoritarian regime in its concrete policy actions. > He doesn't align socially or fiscally with the Republican Party In the 2016 primary campaign, while there was still any significant Republican Party in the electorate or in government that hadn't aligned itself almost completely with Trump's actions, and when one could only assess Trump's position by trying to construct a narrative out of a mass of ambiguous and conflicting statements (both during the campaign and prior) rather than concrete policy and personnel actions, this was a defensible position, but it no longer is. > He could have credibly run as a Democrat Perhaps before he burnt Bridges with the Democratic electorate by (among other things) jumping into birtherism, he might have—he did have a long history of seeking influence with the New York political establishment (dominated by Democrats) by feigning support for Democratic policy positions that, had he not started showing his true colors as he did several years before running for the Republican nomination, he might have been a non-ridiculous (though still doomed) 2016 Democratic primary candidate, even with his even longer and well-documented history of racism and sexism which Democratic 2016 primary voters would probably have been less forgiving of than Republican primary voters the same year. Of course, he would have had to run a very different campaign with a very different assumed persona. > probably won the nomination, No, and to even treat that as even semi-serious requires not understanding the situation and rules in the Republican nominating process Trump exploited to win, the ones in the Democratic primary that Clinton exploited to win, and how the rules of both are engineered to be different than each other or a simple election. > He's to the left of both of the Clintons and Obama on gay marriage (well, Hillary changed her position two years ago, but otherwise). Rhetorically on that narrow issue perhaps, but his substantive actions are far to their right on LGBTQ issues generally. This is particularly dramatically clear when it comes to policy on transgender military service,where both Obama and Trump made active policy changes to the policy which was in place prior to their own respective presidencies, in opposite directions. > He's to the left of Bill on fiscal responsibility. etc. To the extent that there are ldleft and right positions on fiscal responsibility, the left wing position is that “fiscal responsibility” is a reason to cut defense and security spending and/or raise taxes on the rich to pay for government spending, while he right wing position is that fiscal responsibility is a reason to cut social programs or cut taxes on the rich (because tax cuts obviously increase revenues) to pay for government spending. Trump is not to the left of, well, anyone in the Democratic Party Cli on this issue.
- jki275 7y ago
  I’m not going to bother with most of that because it’s just talking points, but I will point out that the birther movement was started by Hillary Clinton’s team when she ran against Obama. Also, calling him racist and sexist is comical, and nobody said that about him when he was buying democrat politicians for decades in NYC - that story got made up when he announced he was going to run for president as a Republican.
  - mikeash 7y ago
    Right, nobody said that before 2015, sure. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/donald-trump-racist-meme/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/donald-trump-racist-meme/ His full page ads calling for the execution of the exonerated Central Park Five ran thirty years ago!
    - jki275 7y ago
      I don’t think the Central Park 5 were exonerated 35 years ago. I’m glad they have been exonerated now, and certainly they shouldn’t have been convicted then - but there was nothing racist in Trump’s ad calling for the reinstatement of the death penalty. Many people believe in it (full disclosure- I’m not one of them), and at least of those I know none of them believe in it for racist reasons.
      - mikeash 7y ago
        That’s true, they were exonerated in 2002. Trump then withdrew his advocacy for their execution in... well, I can’t answer that without crystal ball.
        jki275 7y ago
        Well clearly they wouldn’t be eligible for the death penalty anymore, I don’t think anyone believes that. That’s a bit of an absurd comment to make.

by jki275 7y ago

mikeash 7y ago

Libertarian, really? Since when do libertarians lock people up without trial, advocate against free speech, and vastly bloat government spending?

jki275 7y ago
I’m confused, I wasn’t talking about the Obama administration.
- mikeash 7y ago
  Are you somehow under the impression that Trump hasn't done this, or are you trying to make the blindingly obvious argument that Obama wasn't a libertarian?

dragonwriter 7y ago

> Trump is a sort of left leaning libertarian. Trump is a corrupt, opportunist that is probably more of a kleptocrat than having any coherent ideology, but the Trump Administration is a right-wing authoritarian regime in its concrete policy actions. > He doesn't align socially or fiscally with the Republican Party In the 2016 primary campaign, while there was still any significant Republican Party in the electorate or in government that hadn't aligned itself almost completely with Trump's actions, and when one could only assess Trump's position by trying to construct a narrative out of a mass of ambiguous and conflicting statements (both during the campaign and prior) rather than concrete policy and personnel actions, this was a defensible position, but it no longer is. > He could have credibly run as a Democrat Perhaps before he burnt Bridges with the Democratic electorate by (among other things) jumping into birtherism, he might have—he did have a long history of seeking influence with the New York political establishment (dominated by Democrats) by feigning support for Democratic policy positions that, had he not started showing his true colors as he did several years before running for the Republican nomination, he might have been a non-ridiculous (though still doomed) 2016 Democratic primary candidate, even with his even longer and well-documented history of racism and sexism which Democratic 2016 primary voters would probably have been less forgiving of than Republican primary voters the same year. Of course, he would have had to run a very different campaign with a very different assumed persona. > probably won the nomination, No, and to even treat that as even semi-serious requires not understanding the situation and rules in the Republican nominating process Trump exploited to win, the ones in the Democratic primary that Clinton exploited to win, and how the rules of both are engineered to be different than each other or a simple election. > He's to the left of both of the Clintons and Obama on gay marriage (well, Hillary changed her position two years ago, but otherwise). Rhetorically on that narrow issue perhaps, but his substantive actions are far to their right on LGBTQ issues generally. This is particularly dramatically clear when it comes to policy on transgender military service,where both Obama and Trump made active policy changes to the policy which was in place prior to their own respective presidencies, in opposite directions. > He's to the left of Bill on fiscal responsibility. etc. To the extent that there are ldleft and right positions on fiscal responsibility, the left wing position is that “fiscal responsibility” is a reason to cut defense and security spending and/or raise taxes on the rich to pay for government spending, while he right wing position is that fiscal responsibility is a reason to cut social programs or cut taxes on the rich (because tax cuts obviously increase revenues) to pay for government spending. Trump is not to the left of, well, anyone in the Democratic Party Cli on this issue.

jki275 7y ago
I’m not going to bother with most of that because it’s just talking points, but I will point out that the birther movement was started by Hillary Clinton’s team when she ran against Obama. Also, calling him racist and sexist is comical, and nobody said that about him when he was buying democrat politicians for decades in NYC - that story got made up when he announced he was going to run for president as a Republican.
- mikeash 7y ago
  Right, nobody said that before 2015, sure. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/donald-trump-racist-meme/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/donald-trump-racist-meme/ His full page ads calling for the execution of the exonerated Central Park Five ran thirty years ago!
  - jki275 7y ago
    I don’t think the Central Park 5 were exonerated 35 years ago. I’m glad they have been exonerated now, and certainly they shouldn’t have been convicted then - but there was nothing racist in Trump’s ad calling for the reinstatement of the death penalty. Many people believe in it (full disclosure- I’m not one of them), and at least of those I know none of them believe in it for racist reasons.
    - mikeash 7y ago
      That’s true, they were exonerated in 2002. Trump then withdrew his advocacy for their execution in... well, I can’t answer that without crystal ball.
      - jki275 7y ago
        Well clearly they wouldn’t be eligible for the death penalty anymore, I don’t think anyone believes that. That’s a bit of an absurd comment to make.