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It's a function of men being the main family provider for most of history, that's a fact not a toxic element of masculinity. Saying that has negatively affecte

It's a function of men being the main family provider for most of history, that's a fact not a toxic element of masculinity. Saying that has negatively affected people and assigning it a label is fine, but how is this issue related to you being insulted for your appearance? How is men being the sole providers throughout history toxic? It in itself isn't and the concept of working hard is also not exclusively a masculine idea, just because in Japan male workers literally kill themselves doesn't mean that overworking yourself to death is a masculine idea does it? And outside of Japan I don't see how it's a gender issue at all.

fzeroracer 7y ago
That's literally the definition of masculinity! The entire definition of masculinity is that it is the set of traits and attributes that a culture defines as being characteristically held by men. So if one of the traits a culture holds is 'men must work themselves to death', then that's a toxic idea. It's an idea associated with what society expects of men, which makes it a masculine trait for that culture. Combined, these two form 'toxic masculinity'. It's related what I mentioned because it all ties back to what a culture considers to be masculinity, which is the traits that a man has. Some of these traits can be positive, some can be negative. When we discuss 'toxic masculinity', that means things like men being called 'gay' because of their appearance, men having to be away from their family in order to appear like a hard worker for arbitrary reasons and so forth.
- reroute1 7y ago
  OK I understand the definition, but the idea men should work themselves to death is not one actually held by society at large. Is it only Japanese Male toxicity? Why don't other places have this idea is it just because Japan is not enlightened? I don't think so. In my opinion it's about the workforce being traditionally male, not that it's a masculine idea to overwork yourself. That's why the argument doesn't hold water to me across a global population. That's why it's not a masculine idea and not toxic masculinity, men don't believe it and it's not a generally held belief about men. In my experiences men and women go home at roughly the same time and there are not problems relating to gender there. And you can't blanket your argument by saying 'when we discuss toxic masculinity this is what we mean' because that is exactly what is being debated. I was strictly talking about the article not your personal issues they are not the same thing.
  - fzeroracer 7y ago
    It's specifically a cultural thing in Japan, yes. Some cultures have other levels of overwork at play but Japan has some unique issues in that regard. And your second paragraph makes no sense to me. Masculinity isn't about what is 'globally believed to be true', it's about what each individual culture believe constitutes masculinity. If you were to ask people from each culture what does it mean to be masculine or to be a man, you'll likely get wildly different definitions. Because as I keep saying over and over again, masculinity and toxic masculinity is one we discuss as it relates to culture. You keep defining masculinity as if there is a global constant to masculinity when it can vary immensely from culture to culture. If one culture believes beards are part of being a man and another culture does not, then which is masculine? How do you define that? Is there some global standard?
    - reroute1 7y ago
      If you can't even define masculinity all this discussion seems strange here. You are the one who keeps talking about 'toxic masculinity' like it's a decided phenomenon, but now you are asking if masculinity is not really definable? I have no connection or investment in the term masculinity or global masculinity or toxic masculinity. But if I were trying to define something like that I would say the most identifiable traits across the set of people who are biologically male, not some nebulous concept of masculinity. You can examine traits across all areas however, like your beard example in that definition because it doesn't matter what one culture considers to be masculine, across all populations men have more facial hair. It's a biological attribution not a cultural one. Is it true that more often than not across all populations, men and only men are expected to work themselves to death? I say absolutely not in my experience (working in the United States), maybe yours is different. Do you have any sources or evidence to support this idea outside of Japan? If not then you have no argument for toxic masculinity (as defined by that wiki, which I agree with others who have stated that it's a silly term to begin with) That's why I would say across a global population it isn't a masculine or toxically masculine idea to work yourself to death, from what I can see in most countries men and women work about the same. And in Japan it seems to be becoming if anything a less 'masculine' idea, as evidenced by more females employing the same actions and ideas of the previous workforce so your only real example is drying up, they too are overworking themselves. That is what the original story is about. So why would overworking yourself to death be a male or female quality or socially expected quality? To me it's just a bad quality. Just because in Japan men work themselves to death does not make this a toxically masculine idea for the world at large.

fzeroracer 7y ago

That's literally the definition of masculinity! The entire definition of masculinity is that it is the set of traits and attributes that a culture defines as being characteristically held by men. So if one of the traits a culture holds is 'men must work themselves to death', then that's a toxic idea. It's an idea associated with what society expects of men, which makes it a masculine trait for that culture. Combined, these two form 'toxic masculinity'. It's related what I mentioned because it all ties back to what a culture considers to be masculinity, which is the traits that a man has. Some of these traits can be positive, some can be negative. When we discuss 'toxic masculinity', that means things like men being called 'gay' because of their appearance, men having to be away from their family in order to appear like a hard worker for arbitrary reasons and so forth.

reroute1 7y ago
OK I understand the definition, but the idea men should work themselves to death is not one actually held by society at large. Is it only Japanese Male toxicity? Why don't other places have this idea is it just because Japan is not enlightened? I don't think so. In my opinion it's about the workforce being traditionally male, not that it's a masculine idea to overwork yourself. That's why the argument doesn't hold water to me across a global population. That's why it's not a masculine idea and not toxic masculinity, men don't believe it and it's not a generally held belief about men. In my experiences men and women go home at roughly the same time and there are not problems relating to gender there. And you can't blanket your argument by saying 'when we discuss toxic masculinity this is what we mean' because that is exactly what is being debated. I was strictly talking about the article not your personal issues they are not the same thing.
- fzeroracer 7y ago
  It's specifically a cultural thing in Japan, yes. Some cultures have other levels of overwork at play but Japan has some unique issues in that regard. And your second paragraph makes no sense to me. Masculinity isn't about what is 'globally believed to be true', it's about what each individual culture believe constitutes masculinity. If you were to ask people from each culture what does it mean to be masculine or to be a man, you'll likely get wildly different definitions. Because as I keep saying over and over again, masculinity and toxic masculinity is one we discuss as it relates to culture. You keep defining masculinity as if there is a global constant to masculinity when it can vary immensely from culture to culture. If one culture believes beards are part of being a man and another culture does not, then which is masculine? How do you define that? Is there some global standard?
  - reroute1 7y ago
    If you can't even define masculinity all this discussion seems strange here. You are the one who keeps talking about 'toxic masculinity' like it's a decided phenomenon, but now you are asking if masculinity is not really definable? I have no connection or investment in the term masculinity or global masculinity or toxic masculinity. But if I were trying to define something like that I would say the most identifiable traits across the set of people who are biologically male, not some nebulous concept of masculinity. You can examine traits across all areas however, like your beard example in that definition because it doesn't matter what one culture considers to be masculine, across all populations men have more facial hair. It's a biological attribution not a cultural one. Is it true that more often than not across all populations, men and only men are expected to work themselves to death? I say absolutely not in my experience (working in the United States), maybe yours is different. Do you have any sources or evidence to support this idea outside of Japan? If not then you have no argument for toxic masculinity (as defined by that wiki, which I agree with others who have stated that it's a silly term to begin with) That's why I would say across a global population it isn't a masculine or toxically masculine idea to work yourself to death, from what I can see in most countries men and women work about the same. And in Japan it seems to be becoming if anything a less 'masculine' idea, as evidenced by more females employing the same actions and ideas of the previous workforce so your only real example is drying up, they too are overworking themselves. That is what the original story is about. So why would overworking yourself to death be a male or female quality or socially expected quality? To me it's just a bad quality. Just because in Japan men work themselves to death does not make this a toxically masculine idea for the world at large.