5 ms·

Connecting bad traits with the same term as unchangeable traits makes no sense to. I am male and therefore have masculinity. Why connect demanding overtime to m

Connecting bad traits with the same term as unchangeable traits makes no sense to. I am male and therefore have masculinity. Why connect demanding overtime to masculinity? It's super unspecific and not helpful. And no way you could ever use the word "toxic femininity" or "toxic blackness". People would go crazy,.

fzeroracer 7y ago
Masculinity isn't an unchangeable trait though. You can dress, shave, act etc in different ways which affect how you express yourself which all results in how 'masculine' or 'feminine' your expression is. Toxic masculinity is an attempt to define how a man should look. If you get mocked for having long hair, shaving your face/body or wearing certain colors, that's toxic masculinity. Because you're not acting in a way how a man is supposed to act.
- roel_v 7y ago
  "Masculinity isn't an unchangeable trait though" Can't tell satire from serious arguments any more. Not sure if that's because I'm getting old or because the world is going nuts.
- maxxxxx 7y ago
  "Masculinity isn't an unchangeable trait though." I am masculine. Can't change it unless I take hormones. I can wear a dress but that doesn't change anything.
  - fzeroracer 7y ago
    Please look up the definition of masculinity. It has everything to do with culture, it is not something you are 100% born with. Do you have a beard? If no, then in some cultures you wouldn't be very masculine. Ergo, in those cultures you are not in fact masculine.
    - maxxxxx 7y ago
      So we are trying to get rid of stereotypes by using stereotypes?
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - slothtrop 7y ago
      It's both a function of culture, and sex. Masculine behavior is pretty well the same across cultures. It's informed by biology. There isn't a culture on Earth where it's considered masculine to be passive and meek. Beards are just fashion.
rosser 7y ago
I have had numerous conversations with all manner of avowedly feminist-leaning folk, where both "toxic masculinity" and "toxic femininity" were under discussion, including particularly the ways they exacerbate and reinforce one another. These include people with graduate degrees in icky, feely things like Gender Studies. It turns out, when you use those terms to describe traits, rather than as accusations of assholery or inherent awfulness, you can actually have a conversation, rather than shouting defensively at each other. I think it might be because as used in academic discourse, that's what they are: descriptions of traits.
- belorn 7y ago
  That sounds a bit like how African Americans can use the N-word. The word has different meaning depending on who is saying it, who is the recipient, and the relation the two individuals have.
  - rosser 7y ago
    > The word has different meaning depending on... All words do, to some extent. "The greatest problem in communication is the illusion that it has happened at all." — George Bernard Shaw I'm not sure it's much like the n-word beyond the intent of the utterer, though. I've been called "My n-word" before, by people who "get" to use that word, yet I'm white. I still wouldn't presume to use it back (for myriad reasons, most of which would be tangential, at best, to this discussion — yet more reason I don't find it so relevant). My point has more to do with whether the term is being used constructively (or at least critically, in the sense of analysis, not of berating), versus whether it's being used as some kind of accusation of inherent badness. Because, basically every time the concept comes up, people leap into the conversation taking it that way. Anyone who feels moved to can talk about "toxic [whatever]ity". How that conversation goes probably depends at least as much on what they mean by it as it does their audience.
    - belorn 7y ago
      It not really about the intent, but rather how the intent is perceived. The reason to not use the N-word is for me identical to toxic masculinity. Most recipients and people who happen to be near won't interpret it in any positive way. Both are unproductive for meaningful discourse and leads to a hostile environment. Since people who use those term is usually well aware of the reaction, it must be assumed that it is the speakers intention is to cause harm.
Kluny 7y ago
I've had many conversations about toxic femininity. It's a different thing, and often refers to learned helplessness or a victim mentality. But that's not what's happening in this case. Toxic masculinity is a cultural norm that requires men to be tough, to be providers, to never admit weakness, to be capable of everything that a "normal" person is capable of, and push the limits as well. And although it's called "masculinity", both people in the scenario described above could easily be women.

fzeroracer 7y ago

Masculinity isn't an unchangeable trait though. You can dress, shave, act etc in different ways which affect how you express yourself which all results in how 'masculine' or 'feminine' your expression is. Toxic masculinity is an attempt to define how a man should look. If you get mocked for having long hair, shaving your face/body or wearing certain colors, that's toxic masculinity. Because you're not acting in a way how a man is supposed to act.

roel_v 7y ago
"Masculinity isn't an unchangeable trait though" Can't tell satire from serious arguments any more. Not sure if that's because I'm getting old or because the world is going nuts.
maxxxxx 7y ago
"Masculinity isn't an unchangeable trait though." I am masculine. Can't change it unless I take hormones. I can wear a dress but that doesn't change anything.
- fzeroracer 7y ago
  Please look up the definition of masculinity. It has everything to do with culture, it is not something you are 100% born with. Do you have a beard? If no, then in some cultures you wouldn't be very masculine. Ergo, in those cultures you are not in fact masculine.
  - maxxxxx 7y ago
    So we are trying to get rid of stereotypes by using stereotypes?
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - slothtrop 7y ago
    It's both a function of culture, and sex. Masculine behavior is pretty well the same across cultures. It's informed by biology. There isn't a culture on Earth where it's considered masculine to be passive and meek. Beards are just fashion.

rosser 7y ago

I have had numerous conversations with all manner of avowedly feminist-leaning folk, where both "toxic masculinity" and "toxic femininity" were under discussion, including particularly the ways they exacerbate and reinforce one another. These include people with graduate degrees in icky, feely things like Gender Studies. It turns out, when you use those terms to describe traits, rather than as accusations of assholery or inherent awfulness, you can actually have a conversation, rather than shouting defensively at each other. I think it might be because as used in academic discourse, that's what they are: descriptions of traits.

belorn 7y ago
That sounds a bit like how African Americans can use the N-word. The word has different meaning depending on who is saying it, who is the recipient, and the relation the two individuals have.
- rosser 7y ago
  > The word has different meaning depending on... All words do, to some extent. "The greatest problem in communication is the illusion that it has happened at all." — George Bernard Shaw I'm not sure it's much like the n-word beyond the intent of the utterer, though. I've been called "My n-word" before, by people who "get" to use that word, yet I'm white. I still wouldn't presume to use it back (for myriad reasons, most of which would be tangential, at best, to this discussion — yet more reason I don't find it so relevant). My point has more to do with whether the term is being used constructively (or at least critically, in the sense of analysis, not of berating), versus whether it's being used as some kind of accusation of inherent badness. Because, basically every time the concept comes up, people leap into the conversation taking it that way. Anyone who feels moved to can talk about "toxic [whatever]ity". How that conversation goes probably depends at least as much on what they mean by it as it does their audience.
  - belorn 7y ago
    It not really about the intent, but rather how the intent is perceived. The reason to not use the N-word is for me identical to toxic masculinity. Most recipients and people who happen to be near won't interpret it in any positive way. Both are unproductive for meaningful discourse and leads to a hostile environment. Since people who use those term is usually well aware of the reaction, it must be assumed that it is the speakers intention is to cause harm.

Kluny 7y ago

I've had many conversations about toxic femininity. It's a different thing, and often refers to learned helplessness or a victim mentality. But that's not what's happening in this case. Toxic masculinity is a cultural norm that requires men to be tough, to be providers, to never admit weakness, to be capable of everything that a "normal" person is capable of, and push the limits as well. And although it's called "masculinity", both people in the scenario described above could easily be women.