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Google has a large organization dedicated to map data quality. It's a hard problem to solve - there's money from 3rd parties to be made from spamming the maps.

by mbf1 7y ago

Google has a large organization dedicated to map data quality. It's a hard problem to solve - there's money from 3rd parties to be made from spamming the maps. It's in Google's best interest to try and protect the end user from fakes. Local Guides is one of the many ways you can help police this in your area. Verification is hard. To verify you need evidence and a way to prove it is correct. Proof is hard. Street View is one of the best evidence sources, but it's not allowed in all countries, expensive, and not updated as frequently as the world changes, and even user-provided street view images can be subject to forgery. Unfortunately, the best course of action is vigilance. Report errors when you see them.

mc32 7y ago
While I know YP (the physical book kind) is/was different, and I admit I’m ignorant about this question, was there a significant issue with impersonation and fraud? (I.E. Acme Pest Exterminators, not being Acme pest exterminators?) If an old timey business could filter reasonably well against fraud, one would think a modern leading tech organization would be better positioned to handle this problem.
- 0xffff2 7y ago
  I think the scale was quite a bit different back then. Getting a listing the in the Yellow Pages required money and a physical form. Changing the details on Google Maps is, as far as I can tell, a matter of seconds and doesn't cost a thing.
  - mc32 7y ago
    If this friction provides a better end user experience at a nominal expense of businesses but punishment of fraudsters, I’m okay with that. Scale is not an excuse. There were many regional YPs. Google could break things down if that helped them too.
    - 0xffff2 7y ago
      Oh yeah, I'm totally okay with it too. I was just offering a possible explanation for why fraud was less of an issue for YP than it is for Google.
holy_city 7y ago
>To verify you need evidence and a way to prove it is correct. Proof is hard. What's wrong with verification via snail mail? Too slow? Can't automate it?
- cameronbrown 7y ago
  If you use Google My Business they absolutely do verify your address by mail. Went through this process a few months ago.
UweSchmidt 7y ago
I tried to report things a few times but was stuck at some kind of UI so I gave up. As for evidence, if someone (or several people) uses the maps app to travel to a location, reports that it is closed for good, and travels to a competitor, also using the maps app, that could indicate the report is valid. If other people however navigate to this place and stay before they head back home, that could mean the place is actually not out of business. Google is also good at spam detection, they know everyone who does anything and could flag other actions by a fraudulent user etc. We know that if Google wants to, they can be this smart. But often aren't these days. I think they just don't have both super capable people AND a functional management in ALL of the many fields that they are in. That would probably be impossible.
- ballenf 7y ago
  Most of the spam discussed are specifically for businesses that come to you. Repair services, locksmiths, etc. Or do delivery (florists, e.g.). I think you're underestimating how hard this is and/or how motivated and smart the scammers are.
sytelus 7y ago
> Proof is hard I would argue that it can be made much less hard. Vast majority of cases can be verified by online presence, phone calls, domain emails etc. Minority of cases, like locksmith, are not easy to verify. In those cases you impose proof of work. Meaning that those folks must perform extra work which makes it expensive for them to keep repeating. For example, you can charge them $100 to run third party background check, require them to give TINs and other LLC documentation etc.
- Macross8299 7y ago
  >For example, you can charge them $100 to run third party background check, How do you prevent this from becoming a form of abusive rent-seeking? i.e. randomly removing a businesses' credentials and then charging them the cost of a background check + a small fee to "verify"
Macross8299 7y ago
> It's a hard problem to solve - there's money from 3rd parties to be made from spamming the maps. It's in Google's best interest to try and protect the end user from fakes. A cynic would say it is being treated as an optimization problem from the perspective of maximizing revenue: If we have the number of users switching away from Maps as a function of fake listings and fake listing up-bidding is allowed, how many blatantly fake listings (not even borderline cases) per query can we allow to maximize revenue before the costs of users switching away outweighs the gain from fake listings? More transparency in the process for removing fake listings would be nice to alleviate the concern that this is what Google is doing.

by mbf1 7y ago

mc32 7y ago

While I know YP (the physical book kind) is/was different, and I admit I’m ignorant about this question, was there a significant issue with impersonation and fraud? (I.E. Acme Pest Exterminators, not being Acme pest exterminators?) If an old timey business could filter reasonably well against fraud, one would think a modern leading tech organization would be better positioned to handle this problem.

0xffff2 7y ago
I think the scale was quite a bit different back then. Getting a listing the in the Yellow Pages required money and a physical form. Changing the details on Google Maps is, as far as I can tell, a matter of seconds and doesn't cost a thing.
- mc32 7y ago
  If this friction provides a better end user experience at a nominal expense of businesses but punishment of fraudsters, I’m okay with that. Scale is not an excuse. There were many regional YPs. Google could break things down if that helped them too.
  - 0xffff2 7y ago
    Oh yeah, I'm totally okay with it too. I was just offering a possible explanation for why fraud was less of an issue for YP than it is for Google.

holy_city 7y ago

>To verify you need evidence and a way to prove it is correct. Proof is hard. What's wrong with verification via snail mail? Too slow? Can't automate it?

cameronbrown 7y ago
If you use Google My Business they absolutely do verify your address by mail. Went through this process a few months ago.

UweSchmidt 7y ago

I tried to report things a few times but was stuck at some kind of UI so I gave up. As for evidence, if someone (or several people) uses the maps app to travel to a location, reports that it is closed for good, and travels to a competitor, also using the maps app, that could indicate the report is valid. If other people however navigate to this place and stay before they head back home, that could mean the place is actually not out of business. Google is also good at spam detection, they know everyone who does anything and could flag other actions by a fraudulent user etc. We know that if Google wants to, they can be this smart. But often aren't these days. I think they just don't have both super capable people AND a functional management in ALL of the many fields that they are in. That would probably be impossible.

ballenf 7y ago
Most of the spam discussed are specifically for businesses that come to you. Repair services, locksmiths, etc. Or do delivery (florists, e.g.). I think you're underestimating how hard this is and/or how motivated and smart the scammers are.

sytelus 7y ago

> Proof is hard I would argue that it can be made much less hard. Vast majority of cases can be verified by online presence, phone calls, domain emails etc. Minority of cases, like locksmith, are not easy to verify. In those cases you impose proof of work. Meaning that those folks must perform extra work which makes it expensive for them to keep repeating. For example, you can charge them $100 to run third party background check, require them to give TINs and other LLC documentation etc.

Macross8299 7y ago
>For example, you can charge them $100 to run third party background check, How do you prevent this from becoming a form of abusive rent-seeking? i.e. randomly removing a businesses' credentials and then charging them the cost of a background check + a small fee to "verify"

Macross8299 7y ago

> It's a hard problem to solve - there's money from 3rd parties to be made from spamming the maps. It's in Google's best interest to try and protect the end user from fakes. A cynic would say it is being treated as an optimization problem from the perspective of maximizing revenue: If we have the number of users switching away from Maps as a function of fake listings and fake listing up-bidding is allowed, how many blatantly fake listings (not even borderline cases) per query can we allow to maximize revenue before the costs of users switching away outweighs the gain from fake listings? More transparency in the process for removing fake listings would be nice to alleviate the concern that this is what Google is doing.