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Then don't call it "masculinity" and be more specific. Anything related to "masculinity" will be connected to males.

fzeroracer 7y ago
Yes, that's the point? It's a well defined term. Toxic masculinity is connected to the masculine roles society forces on men and women. I'm not sure what else you'd call it, because the entire point is that it has everything to do with masculinity. Hence, toxic masculinity. But again, anyone can perpetuate it.
- dijit27 7y ago
  I think the point is the definition of toxic masculinity that you are using differs from that of some of the other posters. As I understand your definition toxic masculinity is the pressure society puts on people to conform to negative masculine roles. My personal definition would be people expressing there masculinity in a way that is hurtful and belittling of others. They both are part of the same problem where society creates and perpetuates and pushes people to toxic expressions of masculinity and that in turn hurts the public in general. Which looks something like: Society -> Masculine Roles -> The Public I'd call the negative expression of that chain Toxic Societal Norms and the second part would be Toxic Masculinity. In both cases it's the noun, societal norms or masculinity, that is the source of the toxicity.
  - rosser 7y ago
    > As I understand your definition toxic masculinity is the pressure society puts on people to conform to negative masculine roles. > My personal definition would be people expressing there masculinity in a way that is hurtful and belittling of others. It's both. The cultural norms, and people expressing them are both definitive of toxic masculinity. The belittling is often a product of people internalizing those norms. They then ostracize or punish others who either fail to meet them in the eyes of the belittler, or are evocative to the belittler of the ways in which they, themselves, fail to meet them. In fact, that kind of behavior is what the term "virtue signaling" is actually about: behavior that is performed to signal affiliation with and enforce the norms of some group. It doesn't actually mean the "you're all talk" kind of thing that it's broadly become.
- dTal 7y ago
  Seems to me that if you're taking completely non-gender-specific toxic behavior like belittling employees for not staying late, and assigning it the label "masculinity", it is you who is engaging in the harmful stereotypes.
  - fzeroracer 7y ago
    But this behavior stems from toxic masculinity. The culture of overwork in Japan has been predominantly a male phenomenon which is why Karoshi tends to occur among men. However as women enter into the workforce they have to adapt these same norms in order to survive which is how toxic masculinity affects them as well. The culture of overwork stems from the masculine stereotype of a man having to be the sole provider for the household which also means that they're expected to work extra hard and conform in ways that society demands. This is a textbook example of toxic masculinity. Another example is how some companies in Japan essentially demand you go out drinking with your superiors in order to keep up this facade. You can't talk about fixing issues stemming from male stereotypes without talking about masculinity. And as a man who has received insults and belittlement for having long hair, what else would you call that but a function of toxic masculinity?
    - maxxxxx 7y ago
      "But this behavior stems from toxic masculinity. The culture of overwork in Japan has been predominantly a male phenomenon which is why Karoshi tends to occur among men." It stems from overambitious people who don't care for others, not masculinity. Masculinity points towards males which doesn't help. Call it "overworking culture" to be inclusive. What do you do with a boss who has all attributes of "femininity" but works employees to the bone? Suddenly that's masculinity? Or is that not possible since feminine bosses don't do that?
      - fzeroracer 7y ago
        I've already explained over and over again that yes, women can perpetuate aspects of toxic masculinity. I'm just going to redirect you to the wikipedia entry on toxic masculinity [1] in hopes that you're willing to engage in the argument rather than endlessly attempt to conflate masculinity with all men which has nothing to do with the discussion on toxic masculinity. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_masculinity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_masculinity
reroute1 7y ago
I think the problem is there is only a focus on toxic masculinity and men see it everywhere. It stands to reason there can be just as much toxic femininity, but you don't hear about that ever... or not much talk about positive masculinity but surely that exists also
- maxxxxx 7y ago
  Connecting bad traits with the same term as unchangeable traits makes no sense to. I am male and therefore have masculinity. Why connect demanding overtime to masculinity? It's super unspecific and not helpful. And no way you could ever use the word "toxic femininity" or "toxic blackness". People would go crazy,.
  - fzeroracer 7y ago
    Masculinity isn't an unchangeable trait though. You can dress, shave, act etc in different ways which affect how you express yourself which all results in how 'masculine' or 'feminine' your expression is. Toxic masculinity is an attempt to define how a man should look. If you get mocked for having long hair, shaving your face/body or wearing certain colors, that's toxic masculinity. Because you're not acting in a way how a man is supposed to act.
    - roel_v 7y ago
      "Masculinity isn't an unchangeable trait though" Can't tell satire from serious arguments any more. Not sure if that's because I'm getting old or because the world is going nuts.
    - maxxxxx 7y ago
      "Masculinity isn't an unchangeable trait though." I am masculine. Can't change it unless I take hormones. I can wear a dress but that doesn't change anything.
      - fzeroracer 7y ago
        Please look up the definition of masculinity. It has everything to do with culture, it is not something you are 100% born with. Do you have a beard? If no, then in some cultures you wouldn't be very masculine. Ergo, in those cultures you are not in fact masculine.

Yes, that's the point? It's a well defined term. Toxic masculinity is connected to the masculine roles society forces on men and women. I'm not sure what else you'd call it, because the entire point is that it has everything to do with masculinity. Hence, toxic masculinity. But again, anyone can perpetuate it.

dijit27 7y ago
I think the point is the definition of toxic masculinity that you are using differs from that of some of the other posters. As I understand your definition toxic masculinity is the pressure society puts on people to conform to negative masculine roles. My personal definition would be people expressing there masculinity in a way that is hurtful and belittling of others. They both are part of the same problem where society creates and perpetuates and pushes people to toxic expressions of masculinity and that in turn hurts the public in general. Which looks something like: Society -> Masculine Roles -> The Public I'd call the negative expression of that chain Toxic Societal Norms and the second part would be Toxic Masculinity. In both cases it's the noun, societal norms or masculinity, that is the source of the toxicity.
- rosser 7y ago
  > As I understand your definition toxic masculinity is the pressure society puts on people to conform to negative masculine roles. > My personal definition would be people expressing there masculinity in a way that is hurtful and belittling of others. It's both. The cultural norms, and people expressing them are both definitive of toxic masculinity. The belittling is often a product of people internalizing those norms. They then ostracize or punish others who either fail to meet them in the eyes of the belittler, or are evocative to the belittler of the ways in which they, themselves, fail to meet them. In fact, that kind of behavior is what the term "virtue signaling" is actually about: behavior that is performed to signal affiliation with and enforce the norms of some group. It doesn't actually mean the "you're all talk" kind of thing that it's broadly become.
dTal 7y ago
Seems to me that if you're taking completely non-gender-specific toxic behavior like belittling employees for not staying late, and assigning it the label "masculinity", it is you who is engaging in the harmful stereotypes.
- fzeroracer 7y ago
  But this behavior stems from toxic masculinity. The culture of overwork in Japan has been predominantly a male phenomenon which is why Karoshi tends to occur among men. However as women enter into the workforce they have to adapt these same norms in order to survive which is how toxic masculinity affects them as well. The culture of overwork stems from the masculine stereotype of a man having to be the sole provider for the household which also means that they're expected to work extra hard and conform in ways that society demands. This is a textbook example of toxic masculinity. Another example is how some companies in Japan essentially demand you go out drinking with your superiors in order to keep up this facade. You can't talk about fixing issues stemming from male stereotypes without talking about masculinity. And as a man who has received insults and belittlement for having long hair, what else would you call that but a function of toxic masculinity?
  - maxxxxx 7y ago
    "But this behavior stems from toxic masculinity. The culture of overwork in Japan has been predominantly a male phenomenon which is why Karoshi tends to occur among men." It stems from overambitious people who don't care for others, not masculinity. Masculinity points towards males which doesn't help. Call it "overworking culture" to be inclusive. What do you do with a boss who has all attributes of "femininity" but works employees to the bone? Suddenly that's masculinity? Or is that not possible since feminine bosses don't do that?
    - fzeroracer 7y ago
      I've already explained over and over again that yes, women can perpetuate aspects of toxic masculinity. I'm just going to redirect you to the wikipedia entry on toxic masculinity [1] in hopes that you're willing to engage in the argument rather than endlessly attempt to conflate masculinity with all men which has nothing to do with the discussion on toxic masculinity. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_masculinity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_masculinity

reroute1 7y ago

I think the problem is there is only a focus on toxic masculinity and men see it everywhere. It stands to reason there can be just as much toxic femininity, but you don't hear about that ever... or not much talk about positive masculinity but surely that exists also

maxxxxx 7y ago
Connecting bad traits with the same term as unchangeable traits makes no sense to. I am male and therefore have masculinity. Why connect demanding overtime to masculinity? It's super unspecific and not helpful. And no way you could ever use the word "toxic femininity" or "toxic blackness". People would go crazy,.
- fzeroracer 7y ago
  Masculinity isn't an unchangeable trait though. You can dress, shave, act etc in different ways which affect how you express yourself which all results in how 'masculine' or 'feminine' your expression is. Toxic masculinity is an attempt to define how a man should look. If you get mocked for having long hair, shaving your face/body or wearing certain colors, that's toxic masculinity. Because you're not acting in a way how a man is supposed to act.
  - roel_v 7y ago
    "Masculinity isn't an unchangeable trait though" Can't tell satire from serious arguments any more. Not sure if that's because I'm getting old or because the world is going nuts.
  - maxxxxx 7y ago
    "Masculinity isn't an unchangeable trait though." I am masculine. Can't change it unless I take hormones. I can wear a dress but that doesn't change anything.
    - fzeroracer 7y ago
      Please look up the definition of masculinity. It has everything to do with culture, it is not something you are 100% born with. Do you have a beard? If no, then in some cultures you wouldn't be very masculine. Ergo, in those cultures you are not in fact masculine.