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Providing internet is not the only reason SpaceX's StarLink [0] is a project ;p Yes, GNSS spoofing is an industry wide vulnerability, and not to just cars. If

Providing internet is not the only reason SpaceX's StarLink [0] is a project ;p Yes, GNSS spoofing is an industry wide vulnerability, and not to just cars. If I'm not mistaken, at least in the U.S., it is highly illegal? [0](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starlink_(satellite_constellation) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starlink_(satellite_constellat...)

ohazi 7y ago
Most things that can be described as "shenanigans over RF" are illegal, but they're difficult to trace. Sure, if you broadcast from your house 24/7, the FCC will eventually send their direction-finding vans to look for you. But actual attacks can be localized, low power, and short duration.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- jimmaswell 7y ago
  It's come to my mind that someone could easily cause a small panic transmitting a fake EAS broadcast about some disaster or attack over FM stations duting heavy traffic in a city. Never heard of anyone doing it though. In high school I did play a fake alert from youtube about incoming nukes through the aux-in of a portable radio and had someone believing it for a minute.
  - Theodores 7y ago
    Next you will be shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theatre! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shouting_fire_in_a_crowded_theater https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shouting_fire_in_a_crowded_the...
  - stordoff 7y ago
    Reminds me of The War of the Worlds: > The program has become famous for supposedly tricking some of its listeners into believing that a Martian invasion was actually taking place. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_War_of_the_Worlds_(radio_drama) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_War_of_the_Worlds_(radio_d...
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - Gaelan 7y ago
    IIRC, most radio stations get their EMS broadcasts by listening to another station. So if you can spoof the right one…
- JudgeWapner 7y ago
  Good example of this is the 4 watt limit for CB radio transmission. I remember being a kid interested in ham and CB radio as a kid and being blown away seeing someone's "illegal" 300W amplifier.really doubtful that the FCC opens many investigations over that.
  - TeMPOraL 7y ago
    Another example is PMR, aka. walkie talkies. In many countries, you can use the PMR frequencies unlicensed only through radios with non-removable antennas limited to 0.5W of TX power. Doesn't stop people without licenses from buying and using handheld transceivers intended for HAMs and professionals (like the popular UV-5R with 5W of TX power and a removable antenna) on these frequencies.
  - kawfey 7y ago
    CB Channel 6 is still an ongoing cultural phenomemon. Now that it's the summer, it's back alive with 10kW transmitters all over the place. Today not a single channel was empty, and there was a lot of lower sideband, and freeband operations going on above CH40. I know a guy in my neighborhood who has a old beat up GMC suburban, with a CB radio, a 5kW "12 pill" amplifier, 3 alternators, and 2 heavy-duty CB antennas installed, and he goes by #1 on the air. Guys like him still participate in CB radio shootouts like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyAqzFXDMys https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyAqzFXDMys All the while the FCC doesn't bat an eye. This is because they typically don't cause that much harmful interference. Even though the transmitters are often overdriven and non-linear, typical spurious emissions are outside of critical communications bands and aren't the source of many RFI complaints which drive a majority of FCC investigations.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- kawfey 7y ago
  GPS jammers are frequently used by drivers of GPS-tracked assets to help fudge their numbers. Such devices are very readily available online. However, their goose is cooked the moment they drive past an airport or military base. The airport quickly goes into ILS-only approaches, and local RF direction-finding agents are put into action. I'm surprised it doesn't occur more often than this - https://www.nextgov.com/defense/whats-brewin/2013/08/every-three-years-someone-gets-busted-using-gps-jammer/68348/ https://www.nextgov.com/defense/whats-brewin/2013/08/every-t...
radcon 7y ago
> Providing internet is not the only reason SpaceX's StarLink [0] is a project ;p Is there any indication that they intend to use it for vehicle location / navigation? I see nothing in your link about that. > Yes, GNSS spoofing is an industry wide vulnerability, and not to just cars. If I'm not mistaken, at least in the U.S., it is highly illegal? Whew, for a second I was worried. At least we know we're safe since terrorists never break the law!
- Cshelton 7y ago
  Correct. Terrorist have and always will attempt to bring fear/harm/death to people in many different ways. This is not an autonomous vehicle problem..., it is a human nature problem. And no, I can't speak to all of StarLinks' use cases.
magnamerc 7y ago
You can also spoof aircraft instrument landing systems with relatively cheap SDR's https://aanjhan.com/assets/ils_usenix2019.pdf https://aanjhan.com/assets/ils_usenix2019.pdf

ohazi 7y ago

Most things that can be described as "shenanigans over RF" are illegal, but they're difficult to trace. Sure, if you broadcast from your house 24/7, the FCC will eventually send their direction-finding vans to look for you. But actual attacks can be localized, low power, and short duration.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
jimmaswell 7y ago
It's come to my mind that someone could easily cause a small panic transmitting a fake EAS broadcast about some disaster or attack over FM stations duting heavy traffic in a city. Never heard of anyone doing it though. In high school I did play a fake alert from youtube about incoming nukes through the aux-in of a portable radio and had someone believing it for a minute.
- Theodores 7y ago
  Next you will be shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theatre! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shouting_fire_in_a_crowded_theater https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shouting_fire_in_a_crowded_the...
- stordoff 7y ago
  Reminds me of The War of the Worlds: > The program has become famous for supposedly tricking some of its listeners into believing that a Martian invasion was actually taking place. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_War_of_the_Worlds_(radio_drama) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_War_of_the_Worlds_(radio_d...
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- Gaelan 7y ago
  IIRC, most radio stations get their EMS broadcasts by listening to another station. So if you can spoof the right one…
JudgeWapner 7y ago
Good example of this is the 4 watt limit for CB radio transmission. I remember being a kid interested in ham and CB radio as a kid and being blown away seeing someone's "illegal" 300W amplifier.really doubtful that the FCC opens many investigations over that.
- TeMPOraL 7y ago
  Another example is PMR, aka. walkie talkies. In many countries, you can use the PMR frequencies unlicensed only through radios with non-removable antennas limited to 0.5W of TX power. Doesn't stop people without licenses from buying and using handheld transceivers intended for HAMs and professionals (like the popular UV-5R with 5W of TX power and a removable antenna) on these frequencies.
- kawfey 7y ago
  CB Channel 6 is still an ongoing cultural phenomemon. Now that it's the summer, it's back alive with 10kW transmitters all over the place. Today not a single channel was empty, and there was a lot of lower sideband, and freeband operations going on above CH40. I know a guy in my neighborhood who has a old beat up GMC suburban, with a CB radio, a 5kW "12 pill" amplifier, 3 alternators, and 2 heavy-duty CB antennas installed, and he goes by #1 on the air. Guys like him still participate in CB radio shootouts like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyAqzFXDMys https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyAqzFXDMys All the while the FCC doesn't bat an eye. This is because they typically don't cause that much harmful interference. Even though the transmitters are often overdriven and non-linear, typical spurious emissions are outside of critical communications bands and aren't the source of many RFI complaints which drive a majority of FCC investigations.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
kawfey 7y ago
GPS jammers are frequently used by drivers of GPS-tracked assets to help fudge their numbers. Such devices are very readily available online. However, their goose is cooked the moment they drive past an airport or military base. The airport quickly goes into ILS-only approaches, and local RF direction-finding agents are put into action. I'm surprised it doesn't occur more often than this - https://www.nextgov.com/defense/whats-brewin/2013/08/every-three-years-someone-gets-busted-using-gps-jammer/68348/ https://www.nextgov.com/defense/whats-brewin/2013/08/every-t...

radcon 7y ago

> Providing internet is not the only reason SpaceX's StarLink [0] is a project ;p Is there any indication that they intend to use it for vehicle location / navigation? I see nothing in your link about that. > Yes, GNSS spoofing is an industry wide vulnerability, and not to just cars. If I'm not mistaken, at least in the U.S., it is highly illegal? Whew, for a second I was worried. At least we know we're safe since terrorists never break the law!

Cshelton 7y ago
Correct. Terrorist have and always will attempt to bring fear/harm/death to people in many different ways. This is not an autonomous vehicle problem..., it is a human nature problem. And no, I can't speak to all of StarLinks' use cases.

magnamerc 7y ago

You can also spoof aircraft instrument landing systems with relatively cheap SDR's https://aanjhan.com/assets/ils_usenix2019.pdf https://aanjhan.com/assets/ils_usenix2019.pdf