6 ms·

I must be missing something, but isn't that a petty, arbitrary, and stupid "challenge"? Of course the person at the wedding should not have called the blind man

by xamuel 7y ago

I must be missing something, but isn't that a petty, arbitrary, and stupid "challenge"? Of course the person at the wedding should not have called the blind man a dog, but the response just lowers Al-Ma'arri to the same level. It would be one thing if he said, "The dog is the one who calls another man a dog" (which would have the added benefit of being a funny self-deprecating paradox). Instead, he gloats about trivia? I didn't realize they had fedoras in 10th century Arabia.

wayoutthere 7y ago
Remember these men were the 10th century equivalent of academics — this kind of story sounds just like something you’d hear of in modern academia too. Something about smart people with gigantic egos and poor social skills.
mlevental 7y ago
what you're missing is that this an apocryphal story that dates back so far that it's now part of the vernacular of a culture. think about that - humor and wit and intellectual bravado were completely different 1000 years ago, let alone how different they might be today in arab culture vs western culture. furthermore note that "fedora wearers" today are lampooned because they speak/behave anachronistically. what you're doing is akin to making fun of someone wearing a fedora during the time when fedoras were actually worn!
- Bakary 7y ago
  In fact, the word Fedora comes from Al-Maʿarri's contemporary, the great tailor Al-Feyḍaou'rā.
- ncmncm 7y ago
  And furthermore, the people being called "fedoras" are wearing trilbys. Humphrey Bogart wore a fedora.
marzell 7y ago
I agree.. it sounds like he was socially anxious (not arguing that he should/shouldn't be so) and had lashed out emotionally in the guise of a holier/more intellectual-than-thou snip. Cultural historical differences be damned; while types of comedy and speech have changed over time, real wit has always been a part of modern human behavior, and putting someone down in the name of comedy has always been a slight. I especially agree with the call out about basically esoteric trivia; it sounds like something I would have said when I was 17, thinking I was above everyone, and just making everyone else around me feel extremely awkward.
seeker61 7y ago
Sick burn, bro. Too bad it's wasted on the dead.
- dang 7y ago
  Could you please stop posting unsubstantive comments here? We ban accounts that do that repeatedly and you've unfortunately been doing it a lot. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - mlevental 7y ago
    what is the substance of the comment they responded to? why didn't you scold that person too for essentially insulting a 1000 year dead person?
    - dang 7y ago
      I agree that it was a presumptuous, smug, and uncurious comment. But these things are matters of degree. Public internet forums are unfortunately replete with comments like that. If I were to scold all of comments on HN that land with me that way, I'd have to post 5x as often as I do. That's physically and psychologically impossible. Also, doing so would generate tons of protest comments because people's interpretations and identifications vary so much. It's better to deal with such a comment by posting a substantive reply, which I'm glad to see that you did above. I'm particularly glad that you did it politely and with a light touch; that's not always easy when a comment has produced irritation.
      - mlevental 7y ago
        i don't think it's equianimous what you do. you essentially selectively enforce the rules and thereby normalize such smugness - case in point my response was -1 or 0 for most of today. if you're going to moderate some kinds of antisocial/antipathic behavior then you need to moderate it uniformly - it emboldens and reinforces those that get away with it - they feel validated by the community in their smugness. if you look at my comment history you can find so many of these that i've debated against just over the last few weeks. it's gotten to the point where i'm dreading working in this industry because of the smugness so many people here put on display. in this case there is a dead comment that further sheds light on the nuance ("The bite of the comeback gets lost in translation. It was pretty good given the context and the language."). why is it dead? what is offensive about that? you encourage this kind of downvoting behavior. there is another comment (i can't see the score but i'd bet that it's high - as high as the first smug comment's) that responds to the smug comment and concurs. your pretense to idealism simply biases comments towards articulate arrogance/smugness rather than actual curiousity. imagine being the person that posted the root of this thread (the apocryphal story) and their reaction to the lovingly posted insight into their culture (aliswe - ali swe). why would you ever share here again? and it's such an interesting comment too, something that neither of us would ever discover on our own since we're not arabic speakers. you should have come to this person's defense, not the smug person's. this is not unlike what we see today socially - intolerance of intolerance is more strictly punished than the intolerance.
dingoegret 7y ago
The bite of the comeback gets lost in translation. It was pretty good given the context and the language.
aliswe 7y ago
I disagree. Because the accusation is so arbitrary (the dog is the person who dont know the word for dog) it must be understood as something like: If anyone of us is a dog, then, indeed it should be the one least learned.

by xamuel 7y ago

wayoutthere 7y ago

Remember these men were the 10th century equivalent of academics — this kind of story sounds just like something you’d hear of in modern academia too. Something about smart people with gigantic egos and poor social skills.

mlevental 7y ago

what you're missing is that this an apocryphal story that dates back so far that it's now part of the vernacular of a culture. think about that - humor and wit and intellectual bravado were completely different 1000 years ago, let alone how different they might be today in arab culture vs western culture. furthermore note that "fedora wearers" today are lampooned because they speak/behave anachronistically. what you're doing is akin to making fun of someone wearing a fedora during the time when fedoras were actually worn!

Bakary 7y ago
In fact, the word Fedora comes from Al-Maʿarri's contemporary, the great tailor Al-Feyḍaou'rā.
ncmncm 7y ago
And furthermore, the people being called "fedoras" are wearing trilbys. Humphrey Bogart wore a fedora.

marzell 7y ago

I agree.. it sounds like he was socially anxious (not arguing that he should/shouldn't be so) and had lashed out emotionally in the guise of a holier/more intellectual-than-thou snip. Cultural historical differences be damned; while types of comedy and speech have changed over time, real wit has always been a part of modern human behavior, and putting someone down in the name of comedy has always been a slight. I especially agree with the call out about basically esoteric trivia; it sounds like something I would have said when I was 17, thinking I was above everyone, and just making everyone else around me feel extremely awkward.

seeker61 7y ago

Sick burn, bro. Too bad it's wasted on the dead.

dang 7y ago
Could you please stop posting unsubstantive comments here? We ban accounts that do that repeatedly and you've unfortunately been doing it a lot. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- mlevental 7y ago
  what is the substance of the comment they responded to? why didn't you scold that person too for essentially insulting a 1000 year dead person?
  - dang 7y ago
    I agree that it was a presumptuous, smug, and uncurious comment. But these things are matters of degree. Public internet forums are unfortunately replete with comments like that. If I were to scold all of comments on HN that land with me that way, I'd have to post 5x as often as I do. That's physically and psychologically impossible. Also, doing so would generate tons of protest comments because people's interpretations and identifications vary so much. It's better to deal with such a comment by posting a substantive reply, which I'm glad to see that you did above. I'm particularly glad that you did it politely and with a light touch; that's not always easy when a comment has produced irritation.
    - mlevental 7y ago
      i don't think it's equianimous what you do. you essentially selectively enforce the rules and thereby normalize such smugness - case in point my response was -1 or 0 for most of today. if you're going to moderate some kinds of antisocial/antipathic behavior then you need to moderate it uniformly - it emboldens and reinforces those that get away with it - they feel validated by the community in their smugness. if you look at my comment history you can find so many of these that i've debated against just over the last few weeks. it's gotten to the point where i'm dreading working in this industry because of the smugness so many people here put on display. in this case there is a dead comment that further sheds light on the nuance ("The bite of the comeback gets lost in translation. It was pretty good given the context and the language."). why is it dead? what is offensive about that? you encourage this kind of downvoting behavior. there is another comment (i can't see the score but i'd bet that it's high - as high as the first smug comment's) that responds to the smug comment and concurs. your pretense to idealism simply biases comments towards articulate arrogance/smugness rather than actual curiousity. imagine being the person that posted the root of this thread (the apocryphal story) and their reaction to the lovingly posted insight into their culture (aliswe - ali swe). why would you ever share here again? and it's such an interesting comment too, something that neither of us would ever discover on our own since we're not arabic speakers. you should have come to this person's defense, not the smug person's. this is not unlike what we see today socially - intolerance of intolerance is more strictly punished than the intolerance.

dingoegret 7y ago

The bite of the comeback gets lost in translation. It was pretty good given the context and the language.

aliswe 7y ago

I disagree. Because the accusation is so arbitrary (the dog is the person who dont know the word for dog) it must be understood as something like: If anyone of us is a dog, then, indeed it should be the one least learned.