4 ms·

At this point, I think it's a lot more likely for Apple to switch to using their own chips, at least at the low end.

astrodust 7y ago
Given the JavaScript performance of the shipping units intended for mobile use, which is eclipsing the best of Intel's offerings, it might be possible that the A14 or A15 iteration actually surpasses Intel's chips at x86-64 code as well when run through a Rosetta-like compatibility layer. What if the high-end chip was ARM? It's not just about raw speed, it's about how much performance you can squeeze out of a particular thermal envelope, or compute per watt. If ARM offers 2x the performance per watt, doesn't matter what Intel's chips do with hypothetically unlimited power.
- floatboth 7y ago
  What would be awesome if instead of a Rosetta-like (or qemu-user-like) compatibility layer, the chip supported multiple ISAs natively. The only company that has the rights to do both ARMv8 and amd64 is.. AMD :)
  - Symmetry 7y ago
    That would be nice but NVidia got in legal trouble with x86 patents when they tried to do that with their Project Denver. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Denver https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Denver
    - mappu 7y ago
      Most of the original x86_32 patents have now expired, that was sufficient to let Microsoft build the emulation layer for WoA. It might be more feasible now, except in the last ~5-10 years there's been a push to make many PC apps x86_64 only (e.g. Ubuntu dropping i386 support), so the benefit isn't quite as wide any more.
      - floatboth 7y ago
        Do software implementations have to care? qemu implements like every ISA out there..
        mappu 7y ago
        Presumably so, or Microsoft would have extended the WoA compatibility to x86_64 as well. From 2017 https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/06/intel-fires-warning-shots-at-microsoft-claims-x86-emulation-is-a-patent-minefield/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/06/intel...
- kllrnohj 7y ago
  > it might be possible that the A14 or A15 iteration actually surpasses Intel's chips at x86-64 code as well when run through a Rosetta-like compatibility layer Extremely unlikely, if only because x86-64's memory model is much stronger than ARM's. Emulating that on ARM would be a performance disaster. Apple could have the internals of A14 or A15 have x86's memory model, but that's non-trivial changes and may have too much impact on their ARM performance to justify it. Seems far more likely we'd just see a Macbook that's just straight ARM with x86 code just not supported at all. > What if the high-end chip was ARM? It's not just about raw speed, it's about how much performance you can squeeze out of a particular thermal envelope, or compute per watt. If ARM offers 2x the performance per watt, doesn't matter what Intel's chips do with hypothetically unlimited power. For workstations it's almost entirely about raw speed. The power cost is a rounding error compared to the salary of the person using it that's now spending more time waiting on things and less time getting work done.

Given the JavaScript performance of the shipping units intended for mobile use, which is eclipsing the best of Intel's offerings, it might be possible that the A14 or A15 iteration actually surpasses Intel's chips at x86-64 code as well when run through a Rosetta-like compatibility layer. What if the high-end chip was ARM? It's not just about raw speed, it's about how much performance you can squeeze out of a particular thermal envelope, or compute per watt. If ARM offers 2x the performance per watt, doesn't matter what Intel's chips do with hypothetically unlimited power.

floatboth 7y ago
What would be awesome if instead of a Rosetta-like (or qemu-user-like) compatibility layer, the chip supported multiple ISAs natively. The only company that has the rights to do both ARMv8 and amd64 is.. AMD :)
- Symmetry 7y ago
  That would be nice but NVidia got in legal trouble with x86 patents when they tried to do that with their Project Denver. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Denver https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Denver
  - mappu 7y ago
    Most of the original x86_32 patents have now expired, that was sufficient to let Microsoft build the emulation layer for WoA. It might be more feasible now, except in the last ~5-10 years there's been a push to make many PC apps x86_64 only (e.g. Ubuntu dropping i386 support), so the benefit isn't quite as wide any more.
    - floatboth 7y ago
      Do software implementations have to care? qemu implements like every ISA out there..
      - mappu 7y ago
        Presumably so, or Microsoft would have extended the WoA compatibility to x86_64 as well. From 2017 https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/06/intel-fires-warning-shots-at-microsoft-claims-x86-emulation-is-a-patent-minefield/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/06/intel...
kllrnohj 7y ago
> it might be possible that the A14 or A15 iteration actually surpasses Intel's chips at x86-64 code as well when run through a Rosetta-like compatibility layer Extremely unlikely, if only because x86-64's memory model is much stronger than ARM's. Emulating that on ARM would be a performance disaster. Apple could have the internals of A14 or A15 have x86's memory model, but that's non-trivial changes and may have too much impact on their ARM performance to justify it. Seems far more likely we'd just see a Macbook that's just straight ARM with x86 code just not supported at all. > What if the high-end chip was ARM? It's not just about raw speed, it's about how much performance you can squeeze out of a particular thermal envelope, or compute per watt. If ARM offers 2x the performance per watt, doesn't matter what Intel's chips do with hypothetically unlimited power. For workstations it's almost entirely about raw speed. The power cost is a rounding error compared to the salary of the person using it that's now spending more time waiting on things and less time getting work done.