5 ms·

As a spaniard, I checked out the topic of Euskera's origin for a bit after several trips to the area left me a strong curiosity in the topic. What I found out

by kace91 7y ago

As a spaniard, I checked out the topic of Euskera's origin for a bit after several trips to the area left me a strong curiosity in the topic. What I found out is pretty much that every bit of information has to be taken with a grain of salt, because there is a very strong amount of urban legends, fringe historians supporting outlandish theories with just a bit of anecdotal evidence like the ![vasconic substrate hypothesis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasconic_substrate_hypothesis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasconic_substrate_hypothesis), and bad pseudohistory. There's always claims of mountains of evidence of which just one or two (usually already debunked) examples are provided. It is somewhat comparable to the pseudo history that's sometimes seen in the African American comunity in the US (like the black egyptian hipothesis, the idea that Jesus was black, etc). The issue is a mix of lack of well funded investigation, distrust of mainstream authorities by the people affected and local pride (that causes good sounding stories to be spread without much research).

chrstphrhrt 7y ago
Reminds me of the Irish Chronicles that say the people came from Galicia in northern Spain, before that from northern Africa (possibly Phoenicians), all the way back to Scythia (the horse archers who smoked weed in tents). Seems like a stretch but I think there have been some DNA studies that confirm parts of it, but my understanding is the medieval monks who compiled the stories were trying to claim a link to the Mediterranean/holy land in order to connect their identities to the Bible. Maybe they were mixing up multiple different migrations to fit the narrative. I'm curious about what real historians/scientists think about it.
- arethuza 7y ago
  Also the Scots who presumably inherited these myths from Ireland via Dalriada: "...we find that among other famous nations our own, the Scots, has been graced with widespread renown. They journeyed from Greater Scythia by way of the Tyrrhenian Sea and the Pillars of Hercules, and dwelt for a long course of time in Spain among the most savage tribes, but nowhere could they be subdued by any race, however barbarous. Thence they came, twelve hundred years after the people of Israel crossed the Red Sea, to their home in the west where they still live today." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_Arbroath https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_Arbroath
- elliekelly 7y ago
  I know next to nothing about religion/the Irish Chronicles but I did hike the Camino de Santiago which ends in Galicia and my favorite pit stop along the way was Sierra de Atapuerca[1] and the Museum of Human Evolution in Burgos. The museum (I assume deliberately) avoids any mention of religion whatsoever but my recollection[2] of the tour at the dig site was that they had found evidence of early humans migrating to northern Spain from northern Africa. I would be curious to know if it was a happy accident that medieval monks stumbled into a somewhat correct explanation or whether they had some evidence to support their theory. [1] http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/989 http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/989 [2] In Spanish and I am barely conversational so it’s very likely that I missed some important details.
- jacobush 7y ago
  Yep, DNA fits with the people who lived in the Fertile Crescent way back.
- mig39 7y ago
  The Celtic connection to the Iberian Peninsula is probably a bit more complicated, but the Celtiberians and Celtic people in Ireland have common ancestors. Both being the results of Celtic migrations westward. So I'd say that instead of Irish people coming from Spain and Portugal, it would be fairer to say both are Celtic and leave it at that :-)
  - asveikau 7y ago
    And worth noting that parts of today's modern northern Italy and France also had Celts. Though I also read another claim that Romans just over-applied the term "Celt" to foreign people. (Like the grandparent states, there seems to be a lot of conjecture and folk opinion on these subjects.)
    - weberc2 7y ago
      The Celts used to live all over Europe; they were displaced and assimilated during various migrations, especially the Germanic tribes migrating south. "Ancestral Journeys" by Jean Manco provides a great overview based on linguistic, archeological, and historical evidence.
twic 7y ago
> there is a very strong amount of urban legends, fringe historians supporting outlandish theories with just a bit of anecdotal evidence [...], and bad pseudohistory. There's always claims of mountains of evidence of which just one or two (usually already debunked) examples are provided. Hey, maybe the Voynich Manuscript is written in Basque!
Kinnard 7y ago
What's the 'black Eegyptian hypothesis'? That Egyptians in fact are not/were not ever Scandinavians as they are portrayed today? How are you able to ascertain Jesus' complexion? "What Did Jesus REALLY Look Like?": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPRnrfTHeL4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPRnrfTHeL4 "How Jesus Became Widely Accepted as Being White": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfJCyDmTwyg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfJCyDmTwyg "There Is No White Jesus": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APMu32sC2nM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APMu32sC2nM (This one is the best!) I'm detecting bias . . .
- dragonwriter 7y ago
  > What's the 'black Eegyptian hypothesis'? That Egyptians in fact are not/were not ever Scandinavians as they are portrayed today? No, it's more than that. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Egyptian_hypothesis https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Egyptian_hypothesis
- kace91 7y ago
  wikipedia has a pretty deep explanation of the black egyptian hypothesis: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Egyptian_hypothesis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Egyptian_hypothesis And in case it's even needed to say so, I don't believe in egyptians or the historical jesus being white - I don't think anyone does outside of American media. As for my personal bias, I have no dog in this fight. I'm in the very edge of what could be considered white, being from a country with more than half a millenia of Arabic influence, and the concept of race doesn't exist here with the clear divisions and strong connotations existent in America (not that racism doesn't exist of course).
  - coldtea 7y ago
    >And in case it's even needed to say so, I don't believe in egyptians or the historical jesus being white - I don't think anyone does outside of American media. Who is considered white has a social (non-racial) element, e.g. middle eastern and balkan immigrants weren't considered "white" by Americans early on, where white meant "looking like English/German/Nordic people" in their minds. They became "white" (in the degree that they did) only after they were more integrated into US middle class. That said, Jesus certainly wasn't WASP-white, but he also certainly (to the degree that he existed) was of mediterranean complexion and thus non-black (in the same sense that Jews, Greeks, Lebanese, Souther Italians, Egyptians, and so on were not and are not black).

by kace91 7y ago

chrstphrhrt 7y ago

Reminds me of the Irish Chronicles that say the people came from Galicia in northern Spain, before that from northern Africa (possibly Phoenicians), all the way back to Scythia (the horse archers who smoked weed in tents). Seems like a stretch but I think there have been some DNA studies that confirm parts of it, but my understanding is the medieval monks who compiled the stories were trying to claim a link to the Mediterranean/holy land in order to connect their identities to the Bible. Maybe they were mixing up multiple different migrations to fit the narrative. I'm curious about what real historians/scientists think about it.

arethuza 7y ago
Also the Scots who presumably inherited these myths from Ireland via Dalriada: "...we find that among other famous nations our own, the Scots, has been graced with widespread renown. They journeyed from Greater Scythia by way of the Tyrrhenian Sea and the Pillars of Hercules, and dwelt for a long course of time in Spain among the most savage tribes, but nowhere could they be subdued by any race, however barbarous. Thence they came, twelve hundred years after the people of Israel crossed the Red Sea, to their home in the west where they still live today." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_Arbroath https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_Arbroath
elliekelly 7y ago
I know next to nothing about religion/the Irish Chronicles but I did hike the Camino de Santiago which ends in Galicia and my favorite pit stop along the way was Sierra de Atapuerca[1] and the Museum of Human Evolution in Burgos. The museum (I assume deliberately) avoids any mention of religion whatsoever but my recollection[2] of the tour at the dig site was that they had found evidence of early humans migrating to northern Spain from northern Africa. I would be curious to know if it was a happy accident that medieval monks stumbled into a somewhat correct explanation or whether they had some evidence to support their theory. [1] http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/989 http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/989 [2] In Spanish and I am barely conversational so it’s very likely that I missed some important details.
jacobush 7y ago
Yep, DNA fits with the people who lived in the Fertile Crescent way back.
mig39 7y ago
The Celtic connection to the Iberian Peninsula is probably a bit more complicated, but the Celtiberians and Celtic people in Ireland have common ancestors. Both being the results of Celtic migrations westward. So I'd say that instead of Irish people coming from Spain and Portugal, it would be fairer to say both are Celtic and leave it at that :-)
- asveikau 7y ago
  And worth noting that parts of today's modern northern Italy and France also had Celts. Though I also read another claim that Romans just over-applied the term "Celt" to foreign people. (Like the grandparent states, there seems to be a lot of conjecture and folk opinion on these subjects.)
  - weberc2 7y ago
    The Celts used to live all over Europe; they were displaced and assimilated during various migrations, especially the Germanic tribes migrating south. "Ancestral Journeys" by Jean Manco provides a great overview based on linguistic, archeological, and historical evidence.

twic 7y ago

> there is a very strong amount of urban legends, fringe historians supporting outlandish theories with just a bit of anecdotal evidence [...], and bad pseudohistory. There's always claims of mountains of evidence of which just one or two (usually already debunked) examples are provided. Hey, maybe the Voynich Manuscript is written in Basque!

Kinnard 7y ago

What's the 'black Eegyptian hypothesis'? That Egyptians in fact are not/were not ever Scandinavians as they are portrayed today? How are you able to ascertain Jesus' complexion? "What Did Jesus REALLY Look Like?": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPRnrfTHeL4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPRnrfTHeL4 "How Jesus Became Widely Accepted as Being White": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfJCyDmTwyg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfJCyDmTwyg "There Is No White Jesus": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APMu32sC2nM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APMu32sC2nM (This one is the best!) I'm detecting bias . . .

dragonwriter 7y ago
> What's the 'black Eegyptian hypothesis'? That Egyptians in fact are not/were not ever Scandinavians as they are portrayed today? No, it's more than that. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Egyptian_hypothesis https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Egyptian_hypothesis
kace91 7y ago
wikipedia has a pretty deep explanation of the black egyptian hypothesis: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Egyptian_hypothesis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Egyptian_hypothesis And in case it's even needed to say so, I don't believe in egyptians or the historical jesus being white - I don't think anyone does outside of American media. As for my personal bias, I have no dog in this fight. I'm in the very edge of what could be considered white, being from a country with more than half a millenia of Arabic influence, and the concept of race doesn't exist here with the clear divisions and strong connotations existent in America (not that racism doesn't exist of course).
- coldtea 7y ago
  >And in case it's even needed to say so, I don't believe in egyptians or the historical jesus being white - I don't think anyone does outside of American media. Who is considered white has a social (non-racial) element, e.g. middle eastern and balkan immigrants weren't considered "white" by Americans early on, where white meant "looking like English/German/Nordic people" in their minds. They became "white" (in the degree that they did) only after they were more integrated into US middle class. That said, Jesus certainly wasn't WASP-white, but he also certainly (to the degree that he existed) was of mediterranean complexion and thus non-black (in the same sense that Jews, Greeks, Lebanese, Souther Italians, Egyptians, and so on were not and are not black).