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At what point are we going to stop treating people who take out loans and drive up debt as the victim? Poor life choices is what causes you to get in debt (wit

At what point are we going to stop treating people who take out loans and drive up debt as the victim? Poor life choices is what causes you to get in debt (with the exception of medical deb, unless well, your poor life choices caused your medical condition). In place of all these sob stories and begging for loan forgiveness maybe we should go back to the schools and educate all of our next generation about the badness of taking out debt with the same gusto as we did saying how badly you need a degree and to take out a bunch of debt to do so. Lets bring back "You can't afford it" followed with "It won't be the end of the world if you can't invite 200 people to a wedding you really can't afford". ELOPE PEOPLE!

radcon 7y ago
You must be partially shadow-banned or something, because your comment was instantly faded upon submission (as if it had already been significantly downvoted). Hooray for completely opaque moderation! Edit: Boy, you guys sure are committed to strengthening the echo chamber...
- mbrumlow 7y ago
  I think you can only get 4 down votes... Is it still faded? It has over 20 votes now. I have bumped into dang a at least once, so I would not be surprised if you were not right. While I feel like I try to make my points clear on a topic and leave room for discussion, I do find that some topics HN is simply not ready to have open honest conversations about. While I don't want to enforce a echo chamber and often play the delves advocate, I do try to respect the decisions and rules this site has set.
xcklo 7y ago
I don't like debt, but I think it is hard to dismiss people's decisions when debt seems to be the basis for the modern economy. A significant part of those who promote "financial responsibility" seem to already enjoy some wealth or decent opportunities. While the rest of us get to choose between life-as-a-service or a limited quality of life. Actually, not going into debt have in many locations unfortunately been one of the most costly decisions someone could make in the last 10 years. Which doesn't mean that it will be in the future, but with that in mind it is hard to join you in your opinion.
- sem000 7y ago
  There’s a major difference between good and bad debt. And yes, having a limited quality of life is the consequence of having a limited income. Fact of life that newer generations seem to have no intention of accepting, living inside their means.
AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
Marketing and social pressure are significant factors in people's decision making processes. Our entire society is constructed on the basis of convincing people to buy things and for a long time now whether or not they can actually afford them has not been a significant concern. It is especially callous and ignorant to claim that people are in no way victims of this. However, I think the solution you propose is generally correct. We need to create a social pressure in the opposite direction of pressures pushing for people to take on debt.
- the_gastropod 7y ago
  I think you hit the nail on the head—it is a person's responsibility to spend wisely, but they're fighting a steeply uphill battle. I don't know where the political will will come from to help create that social pressure, when so much money in politics comes from those advertising so heavily to us.
  - mbrumlow 7y ago
    This why I try to speak out on this issue when I can. We can change the social perception by speaking out about it. If we don't speak out about it, its basically giving a pass to a bad social norm. If marketing still was pushing the issue, but all your friends were like "fuck getting in to deb" and treated debt like the black death far fewer people would find them self's chained to institutional debt. 90% of the things people are buying today did not even exist 100 yeas ago and people got along fine. So I urge people, when your friends are considering debt, have a serous talk to them about the consequences. And let them know, that new gadget, event, fancy dohikie they will use 3 times before they get board of it is just not needed.
onion2k 7y ago
Lets bring back "You can't afford it".. Starting with student loans... Giving $150,000 to an 18 year old is rarely a good risk, and it normalizes borrowing extremely large sums of money with no clear way to pay it back on the assumption that it'll all work out in the end. Higher education should find a different business model.
- bassman9000 7y ago
  should find a different business model The model in which such few people should be accessing it -> lower demand -> lower prices. I know, beating the dead horse and such. But that degree in interpretative native dance is doing little to help humanity.
unclesams-uncle 7y ago
I wouldn't say educate people about the badness of debt. Instead, we should teach that debt is a tool that should be respected. Debt can be a good thing if used in the right manner (borrowing to buy a home you plan to live in the long term is a prime example). Financing has its place and its role. What's lacking (on top of general financial education) in society is proper decision-making skills. Fix that, and these sorts of stories will happen less and less. However, getting there is a whole other can of worms...
- Allower 7y ago
  The problem is most people cannot reasonably answer the question "will I be able to pay off this debt in X years?". They just do it because thats what commercials say, thats what their friends say, thats what the bank says. They don't actually consider do they have the skills to acquire the job to earn the income required to pay off their debts. Most people go into debt without a plan for getting OUT of debt, this is the problem.
magicnubs 7y ago
FWIW I agree with you--going into unnecessary debt needs not to be treated like it's inevitable, or else people will continue to do so because they'll buy into the belief that "I never had a choice, debt was the only way I could have my wedding because I only had $10k saved" rather than "I can only spend $10k on my wedding because that's all I can afford". This article doesn't really read like sob stories though. It seems like the opposite with they way they put (arguably) scare quotes around "Instagram-worthy" and have quotes from couples wondering if they should have done things differently. Also: > “The problem is, you don’t want to rely on a personal loan for something that isn’t necessary — and there is nothing necessary about an expensive wedding,” said Stefanie O’Connell > “You have to put it in context,” she said. “You could spend $30,000 on a one-day celebration, or you could use it to put a down payment on a house. These loans sound great when you’re planning your wedding, but afterward, I hear a lot of regret.”
jedrek 7y ago
At what point are we going to start stringing employers who say they "can't pay more" up by the necks and watching them float in the breeze?
bassman9000 7y ago
Debt is the new predator to the old darwinian selection.
NeedMoreTea 7y ago
In my parent's day a loan was something to be ashamed of, to be avoided. They'd grown up through the depression. A small amount of hire purchase seemed to be just about tolerable. If you needed a mortgage or loan it was personally approved by someone at the bank who would typically try and talk you out of it. Then banks gained sales departments, quotas and commissions. The world started accumulating selling scandals. A bit of education does not have a chance of balancing the scale against billions of marketing. "Smoking kills", yet folks still started smoking.
RickJWagner 7y ago
This one earns an up-vote. Spot on, congratulations.

radcon 7y ago

You must be partially shadow-banned or something, because your comment was instantly faded upon submission (as if it had already been significantly downvoted). Hooray for completely opaque moderation! Edit: Boy, you guys sure are committed to strengthening the echo chamber...

mbrumlow 7y ago
I think you can only get 4 down votes... Is it still faded? It has over 20 votes now. I have bumped into dang a at least once, so I would not be surprised if you were not right. While I feel like I try to make my points clear on a topic and leave room for discussion, I do find that some topics HN is simply not ready to have open honest conversations about. While I don't want to enforce a echo chamber and often play the delves advocate, I do try to respect the decisions and rules this site has set.

xcklo 7y ago

I don't like debt, but I think it is hard to dismiss people's decisions when debt seems to be the basis for the modern economy. A significant part of those who promote "financial responsibility" seem to already enjoy some wealth or decent opportunities. While the rest of us get to choose between life-as-a-service or a limited quality of life. Actually, not going into debt have in many locations unfortunately been one of the most costly decisions someone could make in the last 10 years. Which doesn't mean that it will be in the future, but with that in mind it is hard to join you in your opinion.

sem000 7y ago
There’s a major difference between good and bad debt. And yes, having a limited quality of life is the consequence of having a limited income. Fact of life that newer generations seem to have no intention of accepting, living inside their means.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago

Marketing and social pressure are significant factors in people's decision making processes. Our entire society is constructed on the basis of convincing people to buy things and for a long time now whether or not they can actually afford them has not been a significant concern. It is especially callous and ignorant to claim that people are in no way victims of this. However, I think the solution you propose is generally correct. We need to create a social pressure in the opposite direction of pressures pushing for people to take on debt.

the_gastropod 7y ago
I think you hit the nail on the head—it is a person's responsibility to spend wisely, but they're fighting a steeply uphill battle. I don't know where the political will will come from to help create that social pressure, when so much money in politics comes from those advertising so heavily to us.
- mbrumlow 7y ago
  This why I try to speak out on this issue when I can. We can change the social perception by speaking out about it. If we don't speak out about it, its basically giving a pass to a bad social norm. If marketing still was pushing the issue, but all your friends were like "fuck getting in to deb" and treated debt like the black death far fewer people would find them self's chained to institutional debt. 90% of the things people are buying today did not even exist 100 yeas ago and people got along fine. So I urge people, when your friends are considering debt, have a serous talk to them about the consequences. And let them know, that new gadget, event, fancy dohikie they will use 3 times before they get board of it is just not needed.

onion2k 7y ago

Lets bring back "You can't afford it".. Starting with student loans... Giving $150,000 to an 18 year old is rarely a good risk, and it normalizes borrowing extremely large sums of money with no clear way to pay it back on the assumption that it'll all work out in the end. Higher education should find a different business model.

bassman9000 7y ago
should find a different business model The model in which such few people should be accessing it -> lower demand -> lower prices. I know, beating the dead horse and such. But that degree in interpretative native dance is doing little to help humanity.

unclesams-uncle 7y ago

I wouldn't say educate people about the badness of debt. Instead, we should teach that debt is a tool that should be respected. Debt can be a good thing if used in the right manner (borrowing to buy a home you plan to live in the long term is a prime example). Financing has its place and its role. What's lacking (on top of general financial education) in society is proper decision-making skills. Fix that, and these sorts of stories will happen less and less. However, getting there is a whole other can of worms...

Allower 7y ago
The problem is most people cannot reasonably answer the question "will I be able to pay off this debt in X years?". They just do it because thats what commercials say, thats what their friends say, thats what the bank says. They don't actually consider do they have the skills to acquire the job to earn the income required to pay off their debts. Most people go into debt without a plan for getting OUT of debt, this is the problem.

magicnubs 7y ago

FWIW I agree with you--going into unnecessary debt needs not to be treated like it's inevitable, or else people will continue to do so because they'll buy into the belief that "I never had a choice, debt was the only way I could have my wedding because I only had $10k saved" rather than "I can only spend $10k on my wedding because that's all I can afford". This article doesn't really read like sob stories though. It seems like the opposite with they way they put (arguably) scare quotes around "Instagram-worthy" and have quotes from couples wondering if they should have done things differently. Also: > “The problem is, you don’t want to rely on a personal loan for something that isn’t necessary — and there is nothing necessary about an expensive wedding,” said Stefanie O’Connell > “You have to put it in context,” she said. “You could spend $30,000 on a one-day celebration, or you could use it to put a down payment on a house. These loans sound great when you’re planning your wedding, but afterward, I hear a lot of regret.”

jedrek 7y ago

At what point are we going to start stringing employers who say they "can't pay more" up by the necks and watching them float in the breeze?

bassman9000 7y ago

Debt is the new predator to the old darwinian selection.

NeedMoreTea 7y ago

In my parent's day a loan was something to be ashamed of, to be avoided. They'd grown up through the depression. A small amount of hire purchase seemed to be just about tolerable. If you needed a mortgage or loan it was personally approved by someone at the bank who would typically try and talk you out of it. Then banks gained sales departments, quotas and commissions. The world started accumulating selling scandals. A bit of education does not have a chance of balancing the scale against billions of marketing. "Smoking kills", yet folks still started smoking.

RickJWagner 7y ago

This one earns an up-vote. Spot on, congratulations.