4 ms·

Is it not an inevitable result of federation and decentralization as governance? A camel is a horse designed by a committee, as the saying has it.

by avip 7y ago

buboard 7y ago
I dont think federation has anything to do with it. There were no incentives to bring it to consumers though (in contrast e.g. to email), and by itself it is not easy to use for vast majority of end users.
- ethbro 7y ago
  The email protocols pre-date commercial access to the internet. So incentives were very different when it was created.
  - buboard 7y ago
    so does IRC. I believe even if it adopted IRC as a protocol, slack would still be successful, it's all about the UI being dumb-proof, friendly and capable and seemingly in-vogue. Discord, even more.
    - ethbro 7y ago
      If Slack adopted the IRC protocol, it would be subject to the same issue Microsoft had with the early web -- either implementing proprietary extensions to the spec to enable features, kludging in new features by abusing existing functionality, or waiting for spec consensus before expanding. And furthermore, it'd be reimplemented almost instantly by Facebook / Apple / Microsoft / Google. So I can see why they decided to chart a different path.
      - buboard 7y ago
        > it'd be reimplemented almost instantly by Facebook wait, how? It's not like there was/is a lot of ppl on IRC, just a handful, and it doesnt fit into their product (talking with strangers)
        ethbro 7y ago
        Clearly defined spec + order of magnitude funding difference + new market = ideal product cloning opportunity As has been mentioned here, Facebook is running out of strangers to connect: future growth will depend on adding new types of users.
    - fnord123 7y ago
      >it's all about the UI being dumb-proof Make something idiot-proof and the world will make a better idiot. And it looks like I'm the bigger idiot here because I don't understand the interface at all. I'm in two servers for two open source projects but my ID seems to be different for the two servers and not federated for some reason. Or is it? I don't really know. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
      - buboard 7y ago
        Yeah because u re smart enough to understand the IRC so you naturally expect a single identity. Try to empathize with us mere mortals who still have not fully grasped the concept of the emoji.
- Certhas 7y ago
  Federation prevents experimenting, iterating and developing the protocol forward. Yes there are all sort of workarounds like protocol extensions and what have you not, but then you add massive new friction to the system ("No sorry my client doesn't do OpenVideoCall2.0 it only does LibreAVConference0.3"). That type of friction isn't that hard to deal with if you have a bunch of tech savvy people with time on their hands. But it is no longer appropriate for todays web that is used by everyone. > Indeed, cannibalizing a federated application-layer protocol into a centralized service is almost a sure recipe for a successful consumer product today. It’s what Slack did with IRC, what Facebook did with email, and what WhatsApp has done with XMPP. In each case, the federated service is stuck in time, while the centralized service is able to iterate into the modern world and beyond. https://signal.org/blog/the-ecosystem-is-moving/ https://signal.org/blog/the-ecosystem-is-moving/
  - buboard 7y ago
    There s nothing wrong with extensions unless they break the entire system, but seems there was no One IRC company that would essentially dictate extensions to everyone else. Google has changed HTTP and HTML a lot, and email too. Slack could have done the same with IRC (maybe someone else will do in the future? ). Yes, walled gardens are a recipe for success , but despite massive walled gardens we still have not switched wholly to those gardens, because they come and go.
  - eeZah7Ux 7y ago
    > Federation prevents experimenting, iterating and developing the protocol forward. How so? Nothing prevent versioning a protocol and having experimental servers.
    - oblio 7y ago
      But you still have to support the old stuff, which at internet scale, is never upgraded. So you have to support a really long tail of old versions.
    - Certhas 7y ago
      I talk about that _literally_ in the sentence after the one you quoted.

Is it not an inevitable result of federation and decentralization as governance? A camel is a horse designed by a committee, as the saying has it.

by avip 7y ago

Is it not an inevitable result of federation and decentralization as governance? A camel is a horse designed by a committee, as the saying has it.

buboard 7y ago

I dont think federation has anything to do with it. There were no incentives to bring it to consumers though (in contrast e.g. to email), and by itself it is not easy to use for vast majority of end users.

ethbro 7y ago
The email protocols pre-date commercial access to the internet. So incentives were very different when it was created.
- buboard 7y ago
  so does IRC. I believe even if it adopted IRC as a protocol, slack would still be successful, it's all about the UI being dumb-proof, friendly and capable and seemingly in-vogue. Discord, even more.
  - ethbro 7y ago
    If Slack adopted the IRC protocol, it would be subject to the same issue Microsoft had with the early web -- either implementing proprietary extensions to the spec to enable features, kludging in new features by abusing existing functionality, or waiting for spec consensus before expanding. And furthermore, it'd be reimplemented almost instantly by Facebook / Apple / Microsoft / Google. So I can see why they decided to chart a different path.
    - buboard 7y ago
      > it'd be reimplemented almost instantly by Facebook wait, how? It's not like there was/is a lot of ppl on IRC, just a handful, and it doesnt fit into their product (talking with strangers)
      - ethbro 7y ago
        Clearly defined spec + order of magnitude funding difference + new market = ideal product cloning opportunity As has been mentioned here, Facebook is running out of strangers to connect: future growth will depend on adding new types of users.
  - fnord123 7y ago
    >it's all about the UI being dumb-proof Make something idiot-proof and the world will make a better idiot. And it looks like I'm the bigger idiot here because I don't understand the interface at all. I'm in two servers for two open source projects but my ID seems to be different for the two servers and not federated for some reason. Or is it? I don't really know. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    - buboard 7y ago
      Yeah because u re smart enough to understand the IRC so you naturally expect a single identity. Try to empathize with us mere mortals who still have not fully grasped the concept of the emoji.
Certhas 7y ago
Federation prevents experimenting, iterating and developing the protocol forward. Yes there are all sort of workarounds like protocol extensions and what have you not, but then you add massive new friction to the system ("No sorry my client doesn't do OpenVideoCall2.0 it only does LibreAVConference0.3"). That type of friction isn't that hard to deal with if you have a bunch of tech savvy people with time on their hands. But it is no longer appropriate for todays web that is used by everyone. > Indeed, cannibalizing a federated application-layer protocol into a centralized service is almost a sure recipe for a successful consumer product today. It’s what Slack did with IRC, what Facebook did with email, and what WhatsApp has done with XMPP. In each case, the federated service is stuck in time, while the centralized service is able to iterate into the modern world and beyond. https://signal.org/blog/the-ecosystem-is-moving/ https://signal.org/blog/the-ecosystem-is-moving/
- buboard 7y ago
  There s nothing wrong with extensions unless they break the entire system, but seems there was no One IRC company that would essentially dictate extensions to everyone else. Google has changed HTTP and HTML a lot, and email too. Slack could have done the same with IRC (maybe someone else will do in the future? ). Yes, walled gardens are a recipe for success , but despite massive walled gardens we still have not switched wholly to those gardens, because they come and go.
- eeZah7Ux 7y ago
  > Federation prevents experimenting, iterating and developing the protocol forward. How so? Nothing prevent versioning a protocol and having experimental servers.
  - oblio 7y ago
    But you still have to support the old stuff, which at internet scale, is never upgraded. So you have to support a really long tail of old versions.
  - Certhas 7y ago
    I talk about that _literally_ in the sentence after the one you quoted.