5 ms·

> Also I might be in the minority but I actually prefer the feel of the keyboard vs the previous unibody keys. It is not the feel of the keyboard that is "hate

> Also I might be in the minority but I actually prefer the feel of the keyboard vs the previous unibody keys. It is not the feel of the keyboard that is "hated" - it's the reliability (the feel of the keyboard AFTER it stops being new and starts being... the 2016+ rMBP butterfly keyboard). I wonder if the 2019 keyboard is fixed, but I'm VERY sceptical.

19870213 7y ago
Apple extended their keyboard service program to the new 2019 models on launch day: https://www.apple.com/support/keyboard-service-program-for-mac-notebooks/ https://www.apple.com/support/keyboard-service-program-for-m...
- tillinghast 7y ago
  Which is to say that Apple, too, is VERY skeptical. :-)
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
wlesieutre 7y ago
There are people who hate the key feel too. I think it's people who type more forcefully; the new keyboards have a nice clicky feel with a low travel distance, but they require a light touch or you're basically slamming your fingers into a solid object. I don't know why people type like that, but they do. I wonder if there's any correlation with people who stomp their feet when they walk. It's like they never picked up on the fact that you can dial back your own movement's impact instead of just smashing into stuff and letting it stop you.
- iainmerrick 7y ago
  I think your analogy is a major reach, but just to run with it: That reminds me of catlike movement (very graceful, very limited impact and noise) versus doglike (lots of movement and noise, bouncing up and down). And as it turns out, dogs use much less energy walking than cats do. Loud “doglike” typing isn’t necessarily a sign of inexperience, it’s actually energy-efficient and comfortable. I’ve never had RSI but I seriously fear it suddenly striking whenever I have to use one of those super-flat Apple keyboards. Or along similar lines: most if not all piano/keyboard players (I’m fairly sure, anyway) prefer weighted keys. Why do you think that is? It’s not just so you can play loudly or softly; a digital piano can be pressure-sensitive without having a weighted response.
  - hvidgaard 7y ago
    Not the person you're replying to. But how would forceful typing be more energy efficient? You press harder (more muscle activation), keys travel longer (more muscle activation), and you have to move your fingers back "up" again. Btw. the reason pianists want weighted keys is mostly because it mimics acoustic pianos. If you practice on non weighted keys and play on a piano, you would tire your fingers very quickly. Apart from that major reason, the weight gives a tactile feedback when playing that is arguably necessary to play beyond what you learn the first few years. Without it going back and forth between soft and loud requires an entirely different feedback mechanism. But this does not IMO translate to keyboards. You're interested in the tactile feedback of the "click" that signals that the press has been registered.
    - wlesieutre 7y ago
      I think the argument is that you spend energy to start your fingers moving and then you spend more energy to make them stop. But at least the way I type, what I think I'm doing is expending as much energy as needed to make the key bottom out, and no more energy than that. I can buy the extra energy cost for walking because gravity is putting some force on there and you'd expend energy to counterbalance it versus just letting the ground push back. But your fingers have exactly as much force as you put behind them yourself, so I don't know what's up with the finger-slammers. They totally exist though. I was probably reaching with the foot-stompers comparison. Seems like a similar result, but the causes may well be unrelated.
      - iainmerrick 7y ago
        I think what I’m saying is, to try to use your terms: small precise movements can be more tiring than bigger looser movements, because they require strong muscular control. And, I’d argue, keyboards with deeper travel require less precise movements. You can rest your fingers on the keys so you know where you are, and it takes a comfortable longish movement to press a key rather than a tiny precise movement.
        7y ago
- jtreminio 7y ago
  Once you become used to a nice, clicky mechanical keyboard, or have spent time typing on a Lenovo laptop, keyboards with travel feel much less jarring on fingertips. Suggesting people who like travel on keyboards walk around stomping their feet is hilariously misinformed.
  - wlesieutre 7y ago
    I've got one (kaihua browns) and like that too. But I don't type on my laptop keyboard as if it has that much key travel.
- daniel_reetz 7y ago
  I type like this. I have found that it substantially reduces my RSI. YMMV. The travel on a butterfly keyboard is less than 1mm. It's hard to avoid bottoming out. When you say "light touch", it means truly feather-light. A keyboard that needs to be handled so delicately has no place in my world, and will pose difficulty for many.

19870213 7y ago

Apple extended their keyboard service program to the new 2019 models on launch day: https://www.apple.com/support/keyboard-service-program-for-mac-notebooks/ https://www.apple.com/support/keyboard-service-program-for-m...

tillinghast 7y ago
Which is to say that Apple, too, is VERY skeptical. :-)
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]

wlesieutre 7y ago

There are people who hate the key feel too. I think it's people who type more forcefully; the new keyboards have a nice clicky feel with a low travel distance, but they require a light touch or you're basically slamming your fingers into a solid object. I don't know why people type like that, but they do. I wonder if there's any correlation with people who stomp their feet when they walk. It's like they never picked up on the fact that you can dial back your own movement's impact instead of just smashing into stuff and letting it stop you.

iainmerrick 7y ago
I think your analogy is a major reach, but just to run with it: That reminds me of catlike movement (very graceful, very limited impact and noise) versus doglike (lots of movement and noise, bouncing up and down). And as it turns out, dogs use much less energy walking than cats do. Loud “doglike” typing isn’t necessarily a sign of inexperience, it’s actually energy-efficient and comfortable. I’ve never had RSI but I seriously fear it suddenly striking whenever I have to use one of those super-flat Apple keyboards. Or along similar lines: most if not all piano/keyboard players (I’m fairly sure, anyway) prefer weighted keys. Why do you think that is? It’s not just so you can play loudly or softly; a digital piano can be pressure-sensitive without having a weighted response.
- hvidgaard 7y ago
  Not the person you're replying to. But how would forceful typing be more energy efficient? You press harder (more muscle activation), keys travel longer (more muscle activation), and you have to move your fingers back "up" again. Btw. the reason pianists want weighted keys is mostly because it mimics acoustic pianos. If you practice on non weighted keys and play on a piano, you would tire your fingers very quickly. Apart from that major reason, the weight gives a tactile feedback when playing that is arguably necessary to play beyond what you learn the first few years. Without it going back and forth between soft and loud requires an entirely different feedback mechanism. But this does not IMO translate to keyboards. You're interested in the tactile feedback of the "click" that signals that the press has been registered.
  - wlesieutre 7y ago
    I think the argument is that you spend energy to start your fingers moving and then you spend more energy to make them stop. But at least the way I type, what I think I'm doing is expending as much energy as needed to make the key bottom out, and no more energy than that. I can buy the extra energy cost for walking because gravity is putting some force on there and you'd expend energy to counterbalance it versus just letting the ground push back. But your fingers have exactly as much force as you put behind them yourself, so I don't know what's up with the finger-slammers. They totally exist though. I was probably reaching with the foot-stompers comparison. Seems like a similar result, but the causes may well be unrelated.
    - iainmerrick 7y ago
      I think what I’m saying is, to try to use your terms: small precise movements can be more tiring than bigger looser movements, because they require strong muscular control. And, I’d argue, keyboards with deeper travel require less precise movements. You can rest your fingers on the keys so you know where you are, and it takes a comfortable longish movement to press a key rather than a tiny precise movement.
      - 7y ago
jtreminio 7y ago
Once you become used to a nice, clicky mechanical keyboard, or have spent time typing on a Lenovo laptop, keyboards with travel feel much less jarring on fingertips. Suggesting people who like travel on keyboards walk around stomping their feet is hilariously misinformed.
- wlesieutre 7y ago
  I've got one (kaihua browns) and like that too. But I don't type on my laptop keyboard as if it has that much key travel.
daniel_reetz 7y ago
I type like this. I have found that it substantially reduces my RSI. YMMV. The travel on a butterfly keyboard is less than 1mm. It's hard to avoid bottoming out. When you say "light touch", it means truly feather-light. A keyboard that needs to be handled so delicately has no place in my world, and will pose difficulty for many.