5 ms·

weird how other language creators are ganging up against the author here...

59nadir 7y ago
I think it's weirder how shady the author is about everything. Most of the claims of the language are fabrications and on top of that the closed source nature of the things he's making are already becoming a problem. I also think it's natural for people, both language creators and users, to react badly when they see that someone is essentially succeeding by lying to people in a space where there are honest alternatives that already work.
lifthrasiir 7y ago
Because language creators do know what is possible and what is hard. I think the Odin's creator has made some mistakes when presenting one's criticism [1] but even without knowing much PL knowledge AndyKelley is very clearly showing that it is shady. [1] https://github.com/vlang/v/issues/35 https://github.com/vlang/v/issues/35 (For example, there are ways to implement generics or interfaces without AST, much harder but a possible endeavor.)
- amedvednikov 7y ago
  Yes, Andy Kelley being really reasonable: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20231484 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20231484 Calling me a scammer because "V requires glfw and freetype". I have no words.
  - lifthrasiir 7y ago
    And also clang. If your initial release only has a code generation using clang, it is your hard dependency. Windows doesn't have a native compiler and it must have a compiler beforehand---so a bare compiler wouldn't work at all! (I know that the initial release lacked Windows. But I have no reason to believe that the Windows version will be different.) Don't tell me that it is a pre-alpha and will be updated on 22 June, that reads like a sure way to instantly kill your reputation. Always make sure that what you have presented (not what you will present) and what you have said align to each other.
    - amedvednikov 7y ago
      C is the L0 language needed for bootstrapping anyway. You say "also". What else?
      - kingkong2022 7y ago
        > C is the L0 language needed for bootstrapping anyway. Nice attitude BTW. Because it is required for bootstrapping, so it is not a dependency even though I can't use V compiler without it. Great!!!
      - lifthrasiir 7y ago
        > C is the L0 language needed for bootstrapping anyway. So it is your hard dependency. Describe so. > You say "also". What else? If you think that they are spreading the misinformation because some of claimed dependencies are actually for stdlib, you should think again. A substantial subset of HN users would think that "zero dependencies" promise extends to stdlib, as it is technically possible to have out-of-box UI and graphics in the stdlib and especially Go was famous of its independent crypto and network libraries. Your statement was not clear enough.
        amedvednikov 7y ago
        The graphics libraries are not part of stdlib, UI only uses system libraries that are preinstalled. Next?
amedvednikov 7y ago
Yep. I'll address all their claims and lies in a blog post after the open source release on June 22.
boapnuaput 7y ago
Language author here; I work on a modern flavor of a classic 90s language. There are three problems. The first is that closed languages die [0]. V is not Free Software, which is disappointing but not atypical; however, V is not even open source, which precludes a healthy community. Additionally, closed languages tend to have bad patterns like code dumps over the wall, poor community communication, untrustworthy binary behaviors [1], and delayed product/feature releases. Yes, it's certainly embarrassing to have years of history on display for everybody to see, but we all apparently have gotten over it. What's hiding in V's codebase? We don't know. As a best guess, I think that the author may be ashamed of the particular nature of their bootstrap. The second is that V's author makes promises and claims which are then retracted, falsified, or untestable. Most notably, source for V's toolchain has been teased repeatedly as coming soon, but has never been released. Without an open toolchain, none of the claims made on V's front page [2] can be verified. Finally, because we can't not talk about it, V isn't a very compelling language. At best, it could be seen as an iterative improvement on Go. If V were more open, then we could make more sincere and complete comparisions, but as it is, V's author alone gets to control the comparisons [3] and benchmarks [4]. Maybe the best argument to be made is that there is room for a series of languages which focus on compile speed, where languages like Go, Jai, and V compete based primarily on how quickly they can transform zero-cost abstractions into low-level code in a single pass. ...But if that's the game, then it's only a matter of time until one of them rediscovers FORTH... [0] https://blog.golang.org/open-source https://blog.golang.org/open-source [1] https://github.com/voltapp/volt/issues/143 https://github.com/voltapp/volt/issues/143 [2] https://vlang.io/ https://vlang.io/ [3] https://vlang.io/compare https://vlang.io/compare [4] https://vlang.io/compilation_speed https://vlang.io/compilation_speed
- amedvednikov 7y ago
  Why do you call it a closed language? It hasn't been released yet. It will be open-sourced in 2 days. > Most notably, source for V's toolchain has been teased repeatedly as coming soon, It hasn't been teased repeatedly. It's been "coming in June" since February. Why lie?
  - boapnuaput 7y ago

I think it's weirder how shady the author is about everything. Most of the claims of the language are fabrications and on top of that the closed source nature of the things he's making are already becoming a problem. I also think it's natural for people, both language creators and users, to react badly when they see that someone is essentially succeeding by lying to people in a space where there are honest alternatives that already work.

lifthrasiir 7y ago

Because language creators do know what is possible and what is hard. I think the Odin's creator has made some mistakes when presenting one's criticism [1] but even without knowing much PL knowledge AndyKelley is very clearly showing that it is shady. [1] https://github.com/vlang/v/issues/35 https://github.com/vlang/v/issues/35 (For example, there are ways to implement generics or interfaces without AST, much harder but a possible endeavor.)

amedvednikov 7y ago
Yes, Andy Kelley being really reasonable: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20231484 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20231484 Calling me a scammer because "V requires glfw and freetype". I have no words.
- lifthrasiir 7y ago
  And also clang. If your initial release only has a code generation using clang, it is your hard dependency. Windows doesn't have a native compiler and it must have a compiler beforehand---so a bare compiler wouldn't work at all! (I know that the initial release lacked Windows. But I have no reason to believe that the Windows version will be different.) Don't tell me that it is a pre-alpha and will be updated on 22 June, that reads like a sure way to instantly kill your reputation. Always make sure that what you have presented (not what you will present) and what you have said align to each other.
  - amedvednikov 7y ago
    C is the L0 language needed for bootstrapping anyway. You say "also". What else?
    - kingkong2022 7y ago
      > C is the L0 language needed for bootstrapping anyway. Nice attitude BTW. Because it is required for bootstrapping, so it is not a dependency even though I can't use V compiler without it. Great!!!
    - lifthrasiir 7y ago
      > C is the L0 language needed for bootstrapping anyway. So it is your hard dependency. Describe so. > You say "also". What else? If you think that they are spreading the misinformation because some of claimed dependencies are actually for stdlib, you should think again. A substantial subset of HN users would think that "zero dependencies" promise extends to stdlib, as it is technically possible to have out-of-box UI and graphics in the stdlib and especially Go was famous of its independent crypto and network libraries. Your statement was not clear enough.
      - amedvednikov 7y ago
        The graphics libraries are not part of stdlib, UI only uses system libraries that are preinstalled. Next?

amedvednikov 7y ago

Yep. I'll address all their claims and lies in a blog post after the open source release on June 22.

boapnuaput 7y ago

Language author here; I work on a modern flavor of a classic 90s language. There are three problems. The first is that closed languages die [0]. V is not Free Software, which is disappointing but not atypical; however, V is not even open source, which precludes a healthy community. Additionally, closed languages tend to have bad patterns like code dumps over the wall, poor community communication, untrustworthy binary behaviors [1], and delayed product/feature releases. Yes, it's certainly embarrassing to have years of history on display for everybody to see, but we all apparently have gotten over it. What's hiding in V's codebase? We don't know. As a best guess, I think that the author may be ashamed of the particular nature of their bootstrap. The second is that V's author makes promises and claims which are then retracted, falsified, or untestable. Most notably, source for V's toolchain has been teased repeatedly as coming soon, but has never been released. Without an open toolchain, none of the claims made on V's front page [2] can be verified. Finally, because we can't not talk about it, V isn't a very compelling language. At best, it could be seen as an iterative improvement on Go. If V were more open, then we could make more sincere and complete comparisions, but as it is, V's author alone gets to control the comparisons [3] and benchmarks [4]. Maybe the best argument to be made is that there is room for a series of languages which focus on compile speed, where languages like Go, Jai, and V compete based primarily on how quickly they can transform zero-cost abstractions into low-level code in a single pass. ...But if that's the game, then it's only a matter of time until one of them rediscovers FORTH... [0] https://blog.golang.org/open-source https://blog.golang.org/open-source [1] https://github.com/voltapp/volt/issues/143 https://github.com/voltapp/volt/issues/143 [2] https://vlang.io/ https://vlang.io/ [3] https://vlang.io/compare https://vlang.io/compare [4] https://vlang.io/compilation_speed https://vlang.io/compilation_speed

amedvednikov 7y ago
Why do you call it a closed language? It hasn't been released yet. It will be open-sourced in 2 days. > Most notably, source for V's toolchain has been teased repeatedly as coming soon, It hasn't been teased repeatedly. It's been "coming in June" since February. Why lie?
- boapnuaput 7y ago