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CF isn't that bad... if you use one of the many abstraction tools like the CDK or SAM. It's ugly. It has a TON of powerful functionality that the documentation

by 013a 7y ago

CF isn't that bad... if you use one of the many abstraction tools like the CDK or SAM. It's ugly. It has a TON of powerful functionality that the documentation dives into way too early for most people. It has some weird behavior, especially when you get into networking or stateful resources. It's not perfect. But it gets the job done.

ben509 7y ago
I worked at AWS on a service team, and did a lot of work with CF. CF's limitations are in part due to the fact that AWS services are all independent entities and the interoperability services have tremendous difficulty getting other service teams to do their part. The CloudTrail team, for instance, went to great lengths to furnish documentation for other teams to configure their API logging; I know our team fucked it up repeatedly because it was always an afterthought. You can see in CF that some resources are basically useless, and are plainly provided by CF so that the service owner could check a box. Read "Updating DB Instances" here[1] and then look at all the properties that require replacement. CF's design reflects this reality. It does not try to understand how services interact or what objects are. Rather, a "resource" knows how to set up and teardown and a few other operations. If you manage resources exclusively through CF, it can handle most simple use cases. Which is the other limit of CF: by design, they're trying to keep their core invariants simple. For instance, CF offers no mechanism to stage deploys. As an example, the popular Serverless tool has to initially construct a stack with just an S3 bucket, and then issue an update to that to include your actual stack. Internally, we proposed doing staged deploys (because wound up hacking them together) and they weren't interested. And I think that's because they would rather keep the API simple even if it means users move away from CF; possibly a consequence of a loss leader business model. So, yes, CF does get the job done at first, but you will eventually find yourself outgrowing it. [1]: https://docs.aws.amazon.com/AWSCloudFormation/latest/UserGuide/aws-properties-rds-database-instance.html https://docs.aws.amazon.com/AWSCloudFormation/latest/UserGui...

by 013a 7y ago

ben509 7y ago

I worked at AWS on a service team, and did a lot of work with CF. CF's limitations are in part due to the fact that AWS services are all independent entities and the interoperability services have tremendous difficulty getting other service teams to do their part. The CloudTrail team, for instance, went to great lengths to furnish documentation for other teams to configure their API logging; I know our team fucked it up repeatedly because it was always an afterthought. You can see in CF that some resources are basically useless, and are plainly provided by CF so that the service owner could check a box. Read "Updating DB Instances" here[1] and then look at all the properties that require replacement. CF's design reflects this reality. It does not try to understand how services interact or what objects are. Rather, a "resource" knows how to set up and teardown and a few other operations. If you manage resources exclusively through CF, it can handle most simple use cases. Which is the other limit of CF: by design, they're trying to keep their core invariants simple. For instance, CF offers no mechanism to stage deploys. As an example, the popular Serverless tool has to initially construct a stack with just an S3 bucket, and then issue an update to that to include your actual stack. Internally, we proposed doing staged deploys (because wound up hacking them together) and they weren't interested. And I think that's because they would rather keep the API simple even if it means users move away from CF; possibly a consequence of a loss leader business model. So, yes, CF does get the job done at first, but you will eventually find yourself outgrowing it. [1]: https://docs.aws.amazon.com/AWSCloudFormation/latest/UserGuide/aws-properties-rds-database-instance.html https://docs.aws.amazon.com/AWSCloudFormation/latest/UserGui...