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I suspect this is an unpopular opinion but I think the idea that we'll stop climate change with global collective action is just wildly contrary to how human be

I suspect this is an unpopular opinion but I think the idea that we'll stop climate change with global collective action is just wildly contrary to how human beings work at that scale. Unless we get lucky with some natural carbon negative feedback loop, we're probably stuck engineering our way through it. Whether with climate engineering (unlikely), or just muddling through (very likely).

adrianN 7y ago
If, say, the US or the EU set up a proper carbon tax that is also levied on imports, the rest of the world would probably follow suit.
- bryanlarsen 7y ago
  William Nordhaus won the Nobel prize for his efforts flushing out this idea into a workable plan. There are no longer any excuses. We have a reasonable, viable plan to limit greenhouse gas emissions. It's expensive and hard, but a lot less expensive and difficult than the alternative of doing nothing.
- ovi256 7y ago
  Broke: import tariffs motivated by short-termist trade war one-upmanship and bigotism. Woke: import tarrifs motivated by long-termist climate change reduction. We swear they're not the same thing so they can't have similar effects! This time it will be different and those unenlightened non-Westerns will listen to our thought leadership!
  - wool_gather 7y ago
    Are they the same thing? It seems to me they'd be targeting different products, so yes, different effect.
  - adrianN 7y ago
    When the US puts import tariffs on foreign cars for being foreign, there is nothing the other party can do other than putting up their own tariffs in retaliation. If the US puts import tariffs on the embodied carbon emissions of foreign cars, the foreign party can join the carbon tax scheme to get around the tariffs. That seems like an important difference to me, but I'm not an economist. Better economists than me seem to also support a carbon tax or other forms of carbon pricing like cap&trade.
    - mechagodzilla 7y ago
      Exactly - with a carbon tax, the importing country says "The carbon emissions embodied in this product are going to be taxed, we can collect the money or you can, it's up to you." Will that result in a general reduction in the consumption of carbon-intense goods? Of course! They're now more expensive, that's the whole point. With an import tariff on foreign goods (for, as you described, being foreign), it makes foreign goods more expensive (with nothing the other country can do about it), so it will lead to a reduction in the consumption of foreign-produced goods (whether or not that is a benefit to you as an American is probably heavily dependent on what you consume and what you produce).
      - ovi256 7y ago
        For the imported good buyer, there's a price increase. It does not matter to him who collects the tax that increased the price - an import tariff imposing government or an enlightened carbon-scheme participating foreign government. This will reduce demand like any other dead weight loss, and yes, depress economic activity, employement and thus wages. BTW, most countries already have carbon taxes on fossil fuels, they just don't bother calling them that. They call them fuel excise taxes. Around 60% of the price a consumer pays for fuel in the EU is fuel excise tax, in other words, a 150% tax. In the US, it's only about 20%. Here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_tax#China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_tax#China What's your estimated impact of this already huge tax ? Think about the demand elasticity of fuel and energy products.
        adrianN 7y ago
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]

adrianN 7y ago

If, say, the US or the EU set up a proper carbon tax that is also levied on imports, the rest of the world would probably follow suit.

bryanlarsen 7y ago
William Nordhaus won the Nobel prize for his efforts flushing out this idea into a workable plan. There are no longer any excuses. We have a reasonable, viable plan to limit greenhouse gas emissions. It's expensive and hard, but a lot less expensive and difficult than the alternative of doing nothing.
ovi256 7y ago
Broke: import tariffs motivated by short-termist trade war one-upmanship and bigotism. Woke: import tarrifs motivated by long-termist climate change reduction. We swear they're not the same thing so they can't have similar effects! This time it will be different and those unenlightened non-Westerns will listen to our thought leadership!
- wool_gather 7y ago
  Are they the same thing? It seems to me they'd be targeting different products, so yes, different effect.
- adrianN 7y ago
  When the US puts import tariffs on foreign cars for being foreign, there is nothing the other party can do other than putting up their own tariffs in retaliation. If the US puts import tariffs on the embodied carbon emissions of foreign cars, the foreign party can join the carbon tax scheme to get around the tariffs. That seems like an important difference to me, but I'm not an economist. Better economists than me seem to also support a carbon tax or other forms of carbon pricing like cap&trade.
  - mechagodzilla 7y ago
    Exactly - with a carbon tax, the importing country says "The carbon emissions embodied in this product are going to be taxed, we can collect the money or you can, it's up to you." Will that result in a general reduction in the consumption of carbon-intense goods? Of course! They're now more expensive, that's the whole point. With an import tariff on foreign goods (for, as you described, being foreign), it makes foreign goods more expensive (with nothing the other country can do about it), so it will lead to a reduction in the consumption of foreign-produced goods (whether or not that is a benefit to you as an American is probably heavily dependent on what you consume and what you produce).
    - ovi256 7y ago
      For the imported good buyer, there's a price increase. It does not matter to him who collects the tax that increased the price - an import tariff imposing government or an enlightened carbon-scheme participating foreign government. This will reduce demand like any other dead weight loss, and yes, depress economic activity, employement and thus wages. BTW, most countries already have carbon taxes on fossil fuels, they just don't bother calling them that. They call them fuel excise taxes. Around 60% of the price a consumer pays for fuel in the EU is fuel excise tax, in other words, a 150% tax. In the US, it's only about 20%. Here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_tax#China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_tax#China What's your estimated impact of this already huge tax ? Think about the demand elasticity of fuel and energy products.
      - adrianN 7y ago
deleted 7y ago
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