43 ms·

Yeah, that's kinda how free markets work.

bumby 7y ago
Except we don't have those Ayn Rand-ian free markets for a reason. We have a whole host of workers rights in the U.S. because society realized that leaving everything up to free markets to take advantage of what they can may lead to bad outcomes.
- luckylion 7y ago
  ^ for engineers. It obviously works for moderators, and this isn't the first instance it has been reported on, so it appears that there is no outcry from society to be expected any time soon - they know, and they don't care. I'm convinced they would care if it affected those with higher education from wealthy families (i.e. those that become engineers and managers) more, but it doesn't, they are well protected.
  - bumby 7y ago
    Not saying your class argument is wrong, but in the U.S. at least, engineers and moderators are still protected by the same workers rights laws. Maybe the laws need to be updated to reflect modern service jobs, but all workers fall under them.
- cabaalis 7y ago
  Don't we still enjoy the results of those "bad outcomes", though? Huge cities built, railways across the country, massive industries and technology advancements from the period?
  - bumby 7y ago
    Sure, but this falls under "the ends justify the means", which I disagree with. Take climate change. Just because we advanced because of our previous attitudes about carbon doesn't mean it's a good idea to continue doing so in the same regard.
  - specialist 7y ago
    All of those outcomes were initially paid for by government, meaning us taxpayers. For instance, railroads were given huge land grants.
- okr 7y ago
  Do you have an example for a free market, where this has happened? I consider the IT world, that i was part of, the most free experience in my life. No state was involved, contracts were enforced, people just got along. Plain level field. No one even thought of unionizing. Just now it peaks around the corner again. Rules, bureaucracy, everything that slows you down to make your own thing. Can i do this, can i do that? Other people decide about what i do in my life.
  - autotune 7y ago
    >Rules, bureaucracy, everything that slows you down to make your own thing. Would you say the same thing about OSHA? Sometimes having additional safeguards in place are a good thing.
  - bumby 7y ago
    Are you asking for examples where regulations came in without government intervention? There's some examples from the labor movement in the U.S. that fit this sort of self-organizing regulation, although I don't know much on the subject. Eventually, many of the privileges became federally codified rights under the Occupational Safety & Health Act signed by Nixon.
- maximente 7y ago
  no, that's not why we have a whole host of workers' rights in the US. we have a whole host of workers' rights in the US because people were fighting for workers' rights in the US, some of whom were injured or killed. (ed: clarity)
  - bumby 7y ago
    They fought for them because they didn't want the outcomes produced from unfettered industry. I don't see why the tactic (fighting) and the outcome (more equitable society) should be treated as mutually exclusive.
ameister14 7y ago
Except it's not, not really - Ford discovered that paying workers a better wage resulted in greater profitability and increased efficiency.
- sbov 7y ago
  To be more specific, paying them a better wage resulted in less turnover which meant less time searching for employees, less time training, and more experienced workers - resulting in an overall more efficient production line.

Except we don't have those Ayn Rand-ian free markets for a reason. We have a whole host of workers rights in the U.S. because society realized that leaving everything up to free markets to take advantage of what they can may lead to bad outcomes.

luckylion 7y ago
^ for engineers. It obviously works for moderators, and this isn't the first instance it has been reported on, so it appears that there is no outcry from society to be expected any time soon - they know, and they don't care. I'm convinced they would care if it affected those with higher education from wealthy families (i.e. those that become engineers and managers) more, but it doesn't, they are well protected.
- bumby 7y ago
  Not saying your class argument is wrong, but in the U.S. at least, engineers and moderators are still protected by the same workers rights laws. Maybe the laws need to be updated to reflect modern service jobs, but all workers fall under them.
cabaalis 7y ago
Don't we still enjoy the results of those "bad outcomes", though? Huge cities built, railways across the country, massive industries and technology advancements from the period?
- bumby 7y ago
  Sure, but this falls under "the ends justify the means", which I disagree with. Take climate change. Just because we advanced because of our previous attitudes about carbon doesn't mean it's a good idea to continue doing so in the same regard.
- specialist 7y ago
  All of those outcomes were initially paid for by government, meaning us taxpayers. For instance, railroads were given huge land grants.
okr 7y ago
Do you have an example for a free market, where this has happened? I consider the IT world, that i was part of, the most free experience in my life. No state was involved, contracts were enforced, people just got along. Plain level field. No one even thought of unionizing. Just now it peaks around the corner again. Rules, bureaucracy, everything that slows you down to make your own thing. Can i do this, can i do that? Other people decide about what i do in my life.
- autotune 7y ago
  >Rules, bureaucracy, everything that slows you down to make your own thing. Would you say the same thing about OSHA? Sometimes having additional safeguards in place are a good thing.
- bumby 7y ago
  Are you asking for examples where regulations came in without government intervention? There's some examples from the labor movement in the U.S. that fit this sort of self-organizing regulation, although I don't know much on the subject. Eventually, many of the privileges became federally codified rights under the Occupational Safety & Health Act signed by Nixon.
maximente 7y ago
no, that's not why we have a whole host of workers' rights in the US. we have a whole host of workers' rights in the US because people were fighting for workers' rights in the US, some of whom were injured or killed. (ed: clarity)
- bumby 7y ago
  They fought for them because they didn't want the outcomes produced from unfettered industry. I don't see why the tactic (fighting) and the outcome (more equitable society) should be treated as mutually exclusive.

ameister14 7y ago

Except it's not, not really - Ford discovered that paying workers a better wage resulted in greater profitability and increased efficiency.

sbov 7y ago
To be more specific, paying them a better wage resulted in less turnover which meant less time searching for employees, less time training, and more experienced workers - resulting in an overall more efficient production line.