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I don't understand how this isn't a problem perfectly solved by the market. If it's a shit job that isn't worth the pay, people won't do it. If it's an okay job

I don't understand how this isn't a problem perfectly solved by the market. If it's a shit job that isn't worth the pay, people won't do it. If it's an okay job that isn't really worth the pay, they will have high turnover. High turnover has a cost, maybe it's worth it to them. If the turnover is so high or the job is so undesirable, maybe they'll axe the role. If the role is so important to the business that it can't be axed, but people aren't taking the jobs, they'll have to pay more for it. If they can't pay more for it because it cuts too much into profitability, but it's necessary for the company to operate, then they are no longer a viable company in the market. Or they'll have to innovate or adapt. All possibilities are fully encapsulated in very simple dynamics.

sandworm101 7y ago
>> If it's a shit job that isn't worth the pay, people won't do it. That assumes perfect knowledge. As mentioned in the article, these moderators often do not understand what they are getting into until long after they have committed to the job. Once you have quit a previous job, moved, setup your new life, only then do you realize your new "brand consultant" job means watching kittens die all day. Jobs like this also open persons to realities that we normal keep tucked away deep in our brains. We all know that cops don't investigate most reported crimes, but that doesn't come up very often for us. A facebook moderator sees the crimes, sees the lack of response by the police or anyone else, every minute. Repeatedly, every minute. Nobody can appreciate what this does to ones' mental state until you have been there.
- debacle 7y ago
  Nobody moves for $30k a year.
  - skyyler 7y ago
    Are you serious? I know people that have moved for less. Making absolute statements like that doesn't do much for anyone.
  - sandworm101 7y ago
    Lol. Ever seen a migrant camp? Ever talked to a seasonal farm laborer? People will literally walk across continents for 30k/years. https://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Soldier/Salary https://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Soldier/Salary
    - jumbopapa 7y ago
      Sounds like $30k is an improvement in their lives then, so is it really "too little"?
      - JauntyHatAngle 7y ago
        It is very possible to "improve" somebody's life and still be abusing your power over them and causing them damage in other ways.
      - lifeformed 7y ago
        The word is "exploitive". Desperate people will do things because they have to. If I pay a homeless person $20 to humiliate himself, is that a fair transaction, or an exploitation of the asymmetry between our conditions?
        ekianjo 7y ago
        There is no obligation for anyone to do anything. Do you assume that there is no free will and we are all like robots driven by short term profits?
        pizza234 7y ago
        That doesn't answer the parent's question. If you call 20$, for a person who owes nothing and is probably starving, a "short term profit", you've very likely never experienced how is it to live in poor conditions.
        Spooky23 7y ago
        To the chubby engineer type in 2019, yes. Make the drunk dwarf dance, it’s a free market. When recession strikes and the gravy train ends, the same folks will be wearing Che Guevara T-shirts crying about unfairness.
  - hinkley 7y ago
    Username checks out.
  - vageli 7y ago
    > Nobody moves for $30k a year. I personally know people who have moved for half that amount.
  - zild3d 7y ago
    That's really absurd to say, do you realize that $30k/yr is in the top 4% globally? https://www.givingwhatwecan.org/get-involved/how-rich-am-i/?country=USA&income=30000&adults=1&children=0 https://www.givingwhatwecan.org/get-involved/how-rich-am-i/?...
Lewton 7y ago
> If it's a shit job that isn't worth the pay, people won't do it. That is not how the labor market works... At all. "Worth the pay" is overridden by "absolutely need this money for me or my kids to survive"
- ralusek 7y ago
  I responded to another poster. Desperation (debatable regarding whether or not this is possible in the United States) breaks markets, sure, but that doesn't mean that they suddenly need to be micromanaged. I have long been in favor of UBI in order to remove desperation from the table. I'm not, however, in favor of micromanaging roles at companies and arbitrarily determining what they're worth.
  - p1necone 7y ago
    > debatable regarding whether or not this is possible in the United States Wha...? Are you really that far removed from reality?
  - dragonsky67 7y ago
    I've seen desperation in Australia, and our social welfare is head and shoulders above the US. US$30,000 would revolutionise many peoples lives. They would put up with a lot of crap to get that type of money.
xnyan 7y ago
"And the Union workhouses." demanded Scrooge. "Are they still in operation?" "Both very busy, sir..." "Those who are badly off must go there." "Many can't go there; and many would rather die." "If they would rather die," said Scrooge, "they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population." C. Dickens: A Christmas Carol. In Prose. Being a Ghost Story of Christmas, 1843
- pfortuny 7y ago
  Thanks for posting this. There are people who do not get it.
- ralusek 7y ago
  That literally describes the problem though. There are too many people that can do that job, so there's a surplus supply for it to be valuable to the market. It isn't the responsibilities of the Scrooges and the Facebooks to account for the fact that there isn't enough demand for that position for it to pay well. If people are unable to find work, or are otherwise unable to have enough stability so as to avoid exploitative work, that becomes a societal responsibility. Don't tell Facebook what that job should be worth, or what it should entail, that doesn't make any sense. Just like minimum wage laws, they don't make any sense. If we're legitimately talking about situations where the balance of power is so unfavorable to the unemployed individual, the solution is to start talking about UBI, not micromanaging very specific roles at very specific companies.
  - xnyan 7y ago
    https://twitter.com/lil_yenta/status/1140788295175233536 https://twitter.com/lil_yenta/status/1140788295175233536 edit: if it was not clear, facebook is in fact part of society (by definition) and their responsibility is proportional to their role in society, no more no less.
    - ralusek 7y ago
      Yes, and taxes + UBI would represent that proportion. This meme is also only ridiculous because of the $100 figure. What if someone paid you $20k to fuck off. $100k to fuck off?
michaelt 7y ago
I don't understand how this isn't a problem perfectly solved by the market. If I offer a homeless person $30 to let me spit on their face and they accept, the market has worked perfectly - but some people will still think I'm an asshole for spitting on that homeless person.
8bitsrule 7y ago
>> If it's a shit job that isn't worth the pay, people won't do it. Tell that to the people who pick your fruits and veggies.
sonnyblarney 7y ago
Below a certain level, people don't have any leverage at all. Most people depend on their meagre income quite greatly, it's a bold thing to say someone could just 'quit' their job and spend 9 months looking for another one, especially if they don't have some pretty hard skills. So in the realm of talent, yes, it would solve itself, which is why devs et. al. often get 'free lunch' among other things. For most working people, it's much harder. "All possibilities are fully encapsulated in very simple dynamics." Yes, of course, but the incredible power asymmetry between FB and not hugely skilled workers is the dynamic that drives all of this.
social_quotient 7y ago
I think the same about Uber and the drama with drivers. If the work is so bad, pay so terrible, riders don’t want to pay more, then why hasn’t the market killed itself? Now we have gov externalities trying to legislate something that shouldn’t have existed? I’m not saying any of this is write or wrong, I’m just at a loss how people get mad at Uber when the model shouldn’t have made it. Where did the market dynamics go wrong here?
- Spooky23 7y ago
  It will, but it will take a few years. The issue with Uber is they pay $0.70/mi for a task where the cost of fulfilling the task is $1.00. The drivers do it because they can get quick cash with no friction. You can already see the system breaking down. Uber XLs are getting older and shittier. 2012 Dodge Caravan that picked me up at the airport will be dead in a year. As the situation goes on, someone will die in a fiery wreck by an Uber with no brakes, and it will gather the national attention and kill the company.
  - manfredo 7y ago
    I always thought that the car age requirement was dumb. I drove a 2007 Subaru and it still worked perfectly. Another person I knew drove a 1997 BMW that's better than most Ubers I take.
    - Spooky23 7y ago
      I drive a 2003 Honda. It’s a great car in great shape. If I used in as an urban livery vehicle, it wouldn’t be in great shape.

sandworm101 7y ago

>> If it's a shit job that isn't worth the pay, people won't do it. That assumes perfect knowledge. As mentioned in the article, these moderators often do not understand what they are getting into until long after they have committed to the job. Once you have quit a previous job, moved, setup your new life, only then do you realize your new "brand consultant" job means watching kittens die all day. Jobs like this also open persons to realities that we normal keep tucked away deep in our brains. We all know that cops don't investigate most reported crimes, but that doesn't come up very often for us. A facebook moderator sees the crimes, sees the lack of response by the police or anyone else, every minute. Repeatedly, every minute. Nobody can appreciate what this does to ones' mental state until you have been there.

debacle 7y ago
Nobody moves for $30k a year.
- skyyler 7y ago
  Are you serious? I know people that have moved for less. Making absolute statements like that doesn't do much for anyone.
- sandworm101 7y ago
  Lol. Ever seen a migrant camp? Ever talked to a seasonal farm laborer? People will literally walk across continents for 30k/years. https://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Soldier/Salary https://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Soldier/Salary
  - jumbopapa 7y ago
    Sounds like $30k is an improvement in their lives then, so is it really "too little"?
    - JauntyHatAngle 7y ago
      It is very possible to "improve" somebody's life and still be abusing your power over them and causing them damage in other ways.
    - lifeformed 7y ago
      The word is "exploitive". Desperate people will do things because they have to. If I pay a homeless person $20 to humiliate himself, is that a fair transaction, or an exploitation of the asymmetry between our conditions?
      - ekianjo 7y ago
        There is no obligation for anyone to do anything. Do you assume that there is no free will and we are all like robots driven by short term profits?
        pizza234 7y ago
        That doesn't answer the parent's question. If you call 20$, for a person who owes nothing and is probably starving, a "short term profit", you've very likely never experienced how is it to live in poor conditions.
      - Spooky23 7y ago
        To the chubby engineer type in 2019, yes. Make the drunk dwarf dance, it’s a free market. When recession strikes and the gravy train ends, the same folks will be wearing Che Guevara T-shirts crying about unfairness.
- hinkley 7y ago
  Username checks out.
- vageli 7y ago
  > Nobody moves for $30k a year. I personally know people who have moved for half that amount.
- zild3d 7y ago
  That's really absurd to say, do you realize that $30k/yr is in the top 4% globally? https://www.givingwhatwecan.org/get-involved/how-rich-am-i/?country=USA&income=30000&adults=1&children=0 https://www.givingwhatwecan.org/get-involved/how-rich-am-i/?...

Lewton 7y ago

> If it's a shit job that isn't worth the pay, people won't do it. That is not how the labor market works... At all. "Worth the pay" is overridden by "absolutely need this money for me or my kids to survive"

ralusek 7y ago
I responded to another poster. Desperation (debatable regarding whether or not this is possible in the United States) breaks markets, sure, but that doesn't mean that they suddenly need to be micromanaged. I have long been in favor of UBI in order to remove desperation from the table. I'm not, however, in favor of micromanaging roles at companies and arbitrarily determining what they're worth.
- p1necone 7y ago
  > debatable regarding whether or not this is possible in the United States Wha...? Are you really that far removed from reality?
- dragonsky67 7y ago
  I've seen desperation in Australia, and our social welfare is head and shoulders above the US. US$30,000 would revolutionise many peoples lives. They would put up with a lot of crap to get that type of money.

xnyan 7y ago

"And the Union workhouses." demanded Scrooge. "Are they still in operation?" "Both very busy, sir..." "Those who are badly off must go there." "Many can't go there; and many would rather die." "If they would rather die," said Scrooge, "they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population." C. Dickens: A Christmas Carol. In Prose. Being a Ghost Story of Christmas, 1843

pfortuny 7y ago
Thanks for posting this. There are people who do not get it.
ralusek 7y ago
That literally describes the problem though. There are too many people that can do that job, so there's a surplus supply for it to be valuable to the market. It isn't the responsibilities of the Scrooges and the Facebooks to account for the fact that there isn't enough demand for that position for it to pay well. If people are unable to find work, or are otherwise unable to have enough stability so as to avoid exploitative work, that becomes a societal responsibility. Don't tell Facebook what that job should be worth, or what it should entail, that doesn't make any sense. Just like minimum wage laws, they don't make any sense. If we're legitimately talking about situations where the balance of power is so unfavorable to the unemployed individual, the solution is to start talking about UBI, not micromanaging very specific roles at very specific companies.
- xnyan 7y ago
  https://twitter.com/lil_yenta/status/1140788295175233536 https://twitter.com/lil_yenta/status/1140788295175233536 edit: if it was not clear, facebook is in fact part of society (by definition) and their responsibility is proportional to their role in society, no more no less.
  - ralusek 7y ago
    Yes, and taxes + UBI would represent that proportion. This meme is also only ridiculous because of the $100 figure. What if someone paid you $20k to fuck off. $100k to fuck off?

michaelt 7y ago

I don't understand how this isn't a problem perfectly solved by the market. If I offer a homeless person $30 to let me spit on their face and they accept, the market has worked perfectly - but some people will still think I'm an asshole for spitting on that homeless person.

8bitsrule 7y ago

>> If it's a shit job that isn't worth the pay, people won't do it. Tell that to the people who pick your fruits and veggies.

sonnyblarney 7y ago

Below a certain level, people don't have any leverage at all. Most people depend on their meagre income quite greatly, it's a bold thing to say someone could just 'quit' their job and spend 9 months looking for another one, especially if they don't have some pretty hard skills. So in the realm of talent, yes, it would solve itself, which is why devs et. al. often get 'free lunch' among other things. For most working people, it's much harder. "All possibilities are fully encapsulated in very simple dynamics." Yes, of course, but the incredible power asymmetry between FB and not hugely skilled workers is the dynamic that drives all of this.

social_quotient 7y ago

I think the same about Uber and the drama with drivers. If the work is so bad, pay so terrible, riders don’t want to pay more, then why hasn’t the market killed itself? Now we have gov externalities trying to legislate something that shouldn’t have existed? I’m not saying any of this is write or wrong, I’m just at a loss how people get mad at Uber when the model shouldn’t have made it. Where did the market dynamics go wrong here?

Spooky23 7y ago
It will, but it will take a few years. The issue with Uber is they pay $0.70/mi for a task where the cost of fulfilling the task is $1.00. The drivers do it because they can get quick cash with no friction. You can already see the system breaking down. Uber XLs are getting older and shittier. 2012 Dodge Caravan that picked me up at the airport will be dead in a year. As the situation goes on, someone will die in a fiery wreck by an Uber with no brakes, and it will gather the national attention and kill the company.
- manfredo 7y ago
  I always thought that the car age requirement was dumb. I drove a 2007 Subaru and it still worked perfectly. Another person I knew drove a 1997 BMW that's better than most Ubers I take.
  - Spooky23 7y ago
    I drive a 2003 Honda. It’s a great car in great shape. If I used in as an urban livery vehicle, it wouldn’t be in great shape.