8 ms·

The curl author writes in the linked article that Google has a right to do this both morally and legally. He should check with a trademark lawyer immediately si

The curl author writes in the linked article that Google has a right to do this both morally and legally. He should check with a trademark lawyer immediately since they don't have a right to pick such a confusing name and the curl trademark is probably strong enough to be enforceable even in unregistered form. (I'm not a lawyer and this is not legal advice, but I have been involved in administering and enforcing other open source trademarks.)

nerdponx 7y ago
Given that it's his trademark, it seems like he has no interest in enforcing such rights.
- codeaken 7y ago
  I thought it was more or less required to defend your trademark, else you could loose it.
  - jkaplowitz 7y ago
    That's true. But he's allowed to choose to lose it, or to discuss with Google and grant a trademark license.
  - jordigh 7y ago
    He also needs to have registered it in the first place. Trademarks are not automatic like copyright is. I didn't try very hard, but I couldn't find a "curl" trademark here for software: http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/bin/gate.exe?f=tess&state=4808:iz1rln.1.1 http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/bin/gate.exe?f=tess&state=4808:iz1...
    - nerdponx 7y ago
      Sort of. The USA you can claim trademark rights without a registered trademark; that's the difference between ™ and ®. But the law follows "use it or lose it" rules. If you don't defend your trademark, then in the eyes of the court it is no longer a trademark.
      - pferde 7y ago
        Hold on, that's "defend it or lose it". Author of libcurl clearly is using the name, there are new releases coming out quite often.
        nerdponx 7y ago
        My wording was unclear, yes. If you aren't defending it, you aren't using it as a trademark. Think of the term literally; if it's not exclusive to you, it's not longer a "mark" of your specific "trade". It's just a "mark".
        pferde 7y ago
        Fair enough.
    - M2Ys4U 7y ago
      >He also needs to have registered it in the first place. Not true. Unregistered marks can still be defended (it's just harder). That's why there's both ™ and ® symbols. Trademark and Registered Trademark.
thatguyagain 7y ago
But why would he want to protect himself from Google picking a confusing name for _their_ software?
- jkaplowitz 7y ago
  So that he doesn't get the bug reports, feature requests, user support requests, or any reputational problems that stem from Google's confusingly named release.
  - jasonjayr 7y ago
    Just to add to that, since libcurl is used everywhere, he gets all sorts of strange messages: https://daniel.haxx.se/blog/2016/01/19/subject-urgent-warning/ https://daniel.haxx.se/blog/2016/01/19/subject-urgent-warnin...
mijoharas 7y ago
While that may be the case, given that he says they are _morally_ within their rights to do it implies that he won't want to consider a trademark dispute. (Also, just to point out, lawyers cost money, and I wouldn't want to pick a fight with Google's lawyers if I didn't have to)
- jkaplowitz 7y ago
  He may have been considering just the moral rights to fork and ship a derivative, not the confusing naming which he called out himself in the article. But indeed it's possible he doesn't care about sustaining or enforcing the curl trademark. Or he didn't know how the trademark laws can still apply without a formal registration. And you're right, Google legal is not easy to go up against. But maybe they haven't yet been consulted on this plan and would agree with a politely but firmly worded letter from him on the naming question specifically. The original public source of these Google plans is merely an issue in the Chromium bug tracker, not yet a fully vetted blog post or press release.
  - mijoharas 7y ago
    That's a very fair point. Though it would probably be prudent to try sending an email with "hey, do you mind changing your name to something else" first. Then again, given the article and a bit of HN Buzz, that may already be happening. Definitely worth you pointing out the rights that the author likely has in the comments though.
    - jkaplowitz 7y ago
      Yes, an informal first approach is generally best, agreed. My suggested trademark lawyer consultation was not meant to bypass that, but merely to advise on it and to assist with any subsequent steps that the situation may merit.
    - signal11 7y ago
      I wish Google learned from Go/Golang (i.e., where a nontrivial number of people refer to Go as Golang, much to the displeasure of some of the authors) and use names which are easy to search for. I'm not looking forward to people mistyping libcrurl as libcurl and people having to second guess what the intention was. curl might not be a trademark but EU has 'moral right of the author' rules. In my mind libcrurl is right up there with a search engine named G00gle or a software company named MikeRowSoft.
joncp 7y ago
It harkens back to when they stomped on the original go language with thoughtless naming
- jordigh 7y ago
  Issue 9, never forget: https://github.com/golang/go/issues/9#issuecomment-66047467 https://github.com/golang/go/issues/9#issuecomment-66047467
  - ronnier 7y ago
    That hurts to read.
    - lallysingh 7y ago
      I'm going to start squatting programming language names with lisp dialects. I'll demand extensive lip service and Google Summer of Code resources every time they stomp on one. Wait, this makes more sense if I do it for chat systems. Google loves making chat systems.
falcolas 7y ago
If the creator of curl doesn't consider this to be morally grey action by Google, I won't argue (though I do disagree). But I reserve the right to be mightily annoyed by the confusion that any partial implementation of the library and CLI tool will cause.

nerdponx 7y ago

Given that it's his trademark, it seems like he has no interest in enforcing such rights.

codeaken 7y ago
I thought it was more or less required to defend your trademark, else you could loose it.
- jkaplowitz 7y ago
  That's true. But he's allowed to choose to lose it, or to discuss with Google and grant a trademark license.
- jordigh 7y ago
  He also needs to have registered it in the first place. Trademarks are not automatic like copyright is. I didn't try very hard, but I couldn't find a "curl" trademark here for software: http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/bin/gate.exe?f=tess&state=4808:iz1rln.1.1 http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/bin/gate.exe?f=tess&state=4808:iz1...
  - nerdponx 7y ago
    Sort of. The USA you can claim trademark rights without a registered trademark; that's the difference between ™ and ®. But the law follows "use it or lose it" rules. If you don't defend your trademark, then in the eyes of the court it is no longer a trademark.
    - pferde 7y ago
      Hold on, that's "defend it or lose it". Author of libcurl clearly is using the name, there are new releases coming out quite often.
      - nerdponx 7y ago
        My wording was unclear, yes. If you aren't defending it, you aren't using it as a trademark. Think of the term literally; if it's not exclusive to you, it's not longer a "mark" of your specific "trade". It's just a "mark".
        pferde 7y ago
        Fair enough.
  - M2Ys4U 7y ago
    >He also needs to have registered it in the first place. Not true. Unregistered marks can still be defended (it's just harder). That's why there's both ™ and ® symbols. Trademark and Registered Trademark.

thatguyagain 7y ago

But why would he want to protect himself from Google picking a confusing name for _their_ software?

jkaplowitz 7y ago
So that he doesn't get the bug reports, feature requests, user support requests, or any reputational problems that stem from Google's confusingly named release.
- jasonjayr 7y ago
  Just to add to that, since libcurl is used everywhere, he gets all sorts of strange messages: https://daniel.haxx.se/blog/2016/01/19/subject-urgent-warning/ https://daniel.haxx.se/blog/2016/01/19/subject-urgent-warnin...

mijoharas 7y ago

While that may be the case, given that he says they are _morally_ within their rights to do it implies that he won't want to consider a trademark dispute. (Also, just to point out, lawyers cost money, and I wouldn't want to pick a fight with Google's lawyers if I didn't have to)

jkaplowitz 7y ago
He may have been considering just the moral rights to fork and ship a derivative, not the confusing naming which he called out himself in the article. But indeed it's possible he doesn't care about sustaining or enforcing the curl trademark. Or he didn't know how the trademark laws can still apply without a formal registration. And you're right, Google legal is not easy to go up against. But maybe they haven't yet been consulted on this plan and would agree with a politely but firmly worded letter from him on the naming question specifically. The original public source of these Google plans is merely an issue in the Chromium bug tracker, not yet a fully vetted blog post or press release.
- mijoharas 7y ago
  That's a very fair point. Though it would probably be prudent to try sending an email with "hey, do you mind changing your name to something else" first. Then again, given the article and a bit of HN Buzz, that may already be happening. Definitely worth you pointing out the rights that the author likely has in the comments though.
  - jkaplowitz 7y ago
    Yes, an informal first approach is generally best, agreed. My suggested trademark lawyer consultation was not meant to bypass that, but merely to advise on it and to assist with any subsequent steps that the situation may merit.
  - signal11 7y ago
    I wish Google learned from Go/Golang (i.e., where a nontrivial number of people refer to Go as Golang, much to the displeasure of some of the authors) and use names which are easy to search for. I'm not looking forward to people mistyping libcrurl as libcurl and people having to second guess what the intention was. curl might not be a trademark but EU has 'moral right of the author' rules. In my mind libcrurl is right up there with a search engine named G00gle or a software company named MikeRowSoft.

joncp 7y ago

It harkens back to when they stomped on the original go language with thoughtless naming

jordigh 7y ago
Issue 9, never forget: https://github.com/golang/go/issues/9#issuecomment-66047467 https://github.com/golang/go/issues/9#issuecomment-66047467
- ronnier 7y ago
  That hurts to read.
  - lallysingh 7y ago
    I'm going to start squatting programming language names with lisp dialects. I'll demand extensive lip service and Google Summer of Code resources every time they stomp on one. Wait, this makes more sense if I do it for chat systems. Google loves making chat systems.

falcolas 7y ago

If the creator of curl doesn't consider this to be morally grey action by Google, I won't argue (though I do disagree). But I reserve the right to be mightily annoyed by the confusion that any partial implementation of the library and CLI tool will cause.