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It would be nice for "subway cost control" to be part of that plan: http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/05/new-york-infrastructure-costs.html http://nymag.com/i

It would be nice for "subway cost control" to be part of that plan: http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/05/new-york-infrastructure-costs.html http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/05/new-york-infrastructu.... Subways are among the greenest possible transport modes and yet NYC hasn't built substantial new lines since 1940. This is also the same city that provides copious free and heavily subsidized parking while banning or severely limited 30-pound, highly efficient electric vehicles: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/17/opinion/electric-scooters-nashville.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/17/opinion/electric-scooters.... I wonder how we should interpret the city's stated desires versus its actual policies.

dsfyu404ed 7y ago
>This is also the same city that provides copious free and heavily subsidized parking while banning or severely limited 30-pound, highly efficient electric vehicles: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/17/opinion/electric-scooters... https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/17/opinion/electric-scooters.... When you say "scooter" images of traffic in Mumbai pop into the minds of the upscale folks who write the rules so of course they ban anything that has two wheels and doesn't cost too much for the blue collar crowd.
NovemberWhiskey 7y ago
I'm surprised to hear someone say that New York City has "copious free and heavily subsidized parking"; how does that manifest itself, exactly? Living in Manhattan, that's not really my experience.
- Spooky23 7y ago
  It’s just a talking point. The hot thing is to be against street parking these days. There is free street parking in Manhattan, but nobody would describe it as copious.
  - Eric_WVGG 7y ago
    Of course it's copious. Let's say the number of spaces in an average street is X. Most cars in those spaces are just sitting there all day, so the demand for those spaces is 10x. Okay, not copious. But the demand for moving down that street is 1000x. Now those spaces are egregious.
- lg 7y ago
  practically every street in manhattan is lined with free parking spaces, no meters and no required permits.
  - toomuchtodo 7y ago
    That’s not free parking! Those are bike lanes pending barrier construction! :)
    - notJim 7y ago
      Having been to community meetings where those bike lanes are proposed, I can assure you it's nowhere near as easy as you make it sound.
      - nerfhammer 7y ago
        https://twitter.com/HillgateRes/status/1139224319161241603 https://twitter.com/HillgateRes/status/1139224319161241603
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
- donohoe 7y ago
  Let’s start with employee plans can allocate several hundred dollars pre-tax to parking but very limited amounts to subway and train. You can also argue that huge amounts of free street parking are subsidies, but limited areas to chain bikes. There is more, but those are the obvious ones to me.
  - NovemberWhiskey 7y ago
    Pre-tax transport benefit plans at the federal level have had equivalent transit/parking amounts since 2016; not that the city has much control over that. NYC's own pre-tax program explicitly doesn't include parking. It's also probably worth mentioning that the city has a tax on off-street parking at 18.375% in Manhattan.
  - baroffoos 7y ago
    Driving is also heavily subsidized by the fact that much of the cost of driving is externalized. When someone drives the fumes coming out of their car damage the health of everyone around them, that cost is paid for by everyone and not just the person driving so there is very little incentive to stop doing it.
    - dsfyu404ed 7y ago
      If you want to talk externalities then stress, frustration and mental health need to be taken into account on the public transit side of the equation. I'd put up with a hell of a lot of air pollution if it made the trains timely and not crowded and I'm not the only one who'd make that tradeoff.
      - tty2300 7y ago
        Stress, frustration and mental health are costs I have only ever experienced in a car. Riding my bike to work was one of the best things I ever did for my mental and physical health.
- donjoe 7y ago
  Does your car parking cost as much as renting a flat/sqm? I bet it does not. Where I live, parking space costs you about 15€/sqm/month on a single floor/no floor since it's 'public space'. A flat is avg. 22€/sqm/month and buildings in general come with 6 floors: we're closer to 6*22€/sqm/month for living space...
  - NovemberWhiskey 7y ago
    I pay $512.84 per month for parking; it's valet parking because they stack multiple cars on elevators in the building basement. I don't know exactly how you want to characterize the floor space of that, but my gut feel is it's basically a similar cost to rent for an apartment per unit area.
  - mechagodzilla 7y ago
    I think it probably comes pretty close - my friends with parking spaces in Manhattan pay $500+/mo
  - lostlogin 7y ago
    I don’t want to argue for cars, but a square of something you can park on should definitely be cheaper per unit area than something you live in. I don’t think I’ve ever parked anywhere I’d happily live.
    - markdown 7y ago
      He must be thinking of Hong Kong: https://edition.cnn.com/travel/article/hong-kong-parking-space-intl/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/travel/article/hong-kong-parking-spa...
    - albedoa 7y ago
      You've imagined what it would be like to live in a parking space if it were to remain one of a block or a row of parking spaces. I don't think that's the point being made.
    - lotsofpulp 7y ago
      If there are fewer parking spots relative to demand compared to living spaces relative to demand, then parking may very well be more expensive. I don’t see why parking “should” inherently be cheaper, it’s always supply and demand determining price.
- oh_sigh 7y ago
  Every car parked on a street in Manhattan is taking advantage of free or subsidized parking.
  - NovemberWhiskey 7y ago
    Well, there is some metered parking; admittedly not a whole lot. But street parking is not "copious" which implies an abundance relative to demand. If there were "copious free parking" in Manhattan, there wouldn't be hundreds of parking garages charging up to $70 a day during the week, would there?
    - oh_sigh 7y ago
      Copious can mean abundant in either supply or quantity.
- bobthepanda 7y ago
  This is more true in the outer boroughs. Lots of circling the block in Flushing, for example.
melling 7y ago
It has been 80 years since we built new lines? We could definitely use more. Extending the 7 to NJ would also be great. We jam all those buses through the Lincoln Tunnel every weekday. Found this on Wikipedia: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposed_expansion_of_the_New_York_City_Subway https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposed_expansion_of_the_Ne...
- NovemberWhiskey 7y ago
  Extending lines clearly isn't in the scope of the commenter; the 7 already got an extension to Hudson Yards a few years back and the first phase of the 2nd Ave extension came into operation recently as well. Speaking from my own selfish perspective, I think fixing the lines we do have is more of a priority than building new ones.
  - melling 7y ago
    Only part of the 7 extension was completed. They didn’t complete one of the stations because of cost. You’re doing that thing where you think we can only do one or the other. It takes a long time to fix existing subways. You can’t simply close them down. Look at the L train. There’s no reason we can’t also expand the subway. Depending on where you build, it could go a lot faster.
- sman393 7y ago
  That could be a great idea, luckily the path train exists, although I've never commuted on it so I can't speak to its reliability.
blhack 7y ago
>banning or severely limiting... Watching this happen has been one of the most unbelievably frustrating things I’ve ever seen. I’m in Santa Monica right now, and figures I could park my car away from the beach, in a high density “car” area, then ride a scooter from there down to Venice Beach where my friend lives to say hi to him. It’s a minefield of seemingly random geofences which shut the scooter off and make you push it a few blocks into the allowed areas, or ordinances that allow skateboarding and bicycling, but not scooters, on what appear to be purpose built bike paths! The dumbest part is that you can ride a bike, or a scooter, or a skateboard, but none of these things if it has the amazing technology to make it useful beyond recreation (for non-enthusiasts): a motor. Honestly it just seems like neo-puritanical hatred of the idea that the motor makes it too easy. It makes me just want to say burn the whole then down (metaphorically) and I’ll just drive the biggest comfiest car I can find wherever I need to go.
- tppiotrowski 7y ago
  Have you considered buying your own scooter [1]? You can fold it and keep it in the trunk of your car. I bought a Xiaomi clone for $250 on Los Angeles craigslist and take it from Venice to the climbing gym in Culver City every week. It takes about 45 minutes which is faster than traffic on Venice Blvd or the metro. [1] https://www.walmart.com/ip/Xiaomi-Mi-Electric-Scooter-18-6-Miles-Long-range-Battery-Up-to-15-5-MPH-Easy-Fold-n-Carry-Design-Ultra-Lightweight-Adult-Electric-Scooter/578513945 https://www.walmart.com/ip/Xiaomi-Mi-Electric-Scooter-18-6-M...
  - markdown 7y ago
    Walmart sells knock-offs? That looks like an original Xiomi and not a clone to me.
    - fwip 7y ago
      The knockoff came from Craigslist.
    - tppiotrowski 7y ago
      The linked one is original Xiaomi. I bought a clone off of Craigslist. The welding is not as nice and it uses MiniRobot app instead of Mi Home, but the battery and motor are holding up well. Here's a good video describing Xiamoi original vs. clone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CiXiKr47T8g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CiXiKr47T8g
ajross 7y ago
That's a misoptimization. New York City's subway and roads may be terribly inefficient relative to what they could be. They're still vastly more so than the rural transportation in the rest of the state. Pick the low hanging fruit before trying to squeeze out the last few percent. And in any case the existence of bad transportation policy isn't a reason not to celebrate a climate bill, so I don't get your point.
- mikemotherwell 7y ago
  Oh, so they lead off with REFRIGERANT MANAGEMENT did they? https://www.drawdown.org/solutions/materials/refrigerant-management https://www.drawdown.org/solutions/materials/refrigerant-man...
  - ajross 7y ago
    Not sure if sarcasm. In fact the whole point of Drawdown is to enumerate all the possible fruit, both high and low hanging, and come up with numbers justifying their picking in parallel. So yeah, refrigerant management is part of the solution, and you can check their numbers for how much it would save and how much it would cost, and that is done deliberately to avoid nonsense like "why are you bothering with air conditioners?!". In contrast, the upthread comment seemed to be arguing that a blanket bill trying to establish a regulation framework for climate change is insincere because of minutiae about NYC's mismanaged transportation infrastructure. Going back to your snark: it's the equivalent of "Throw the whole Drawdown plan in the trash because China has too many air conditioners." See the problem with that logic?
xhgdvjky 7y ago
2nd Ave line?

dsfyu404ed 7y ago

>This is also the same city that provides copious free and heavily subsidized parking while banning or severely limited 30-pound, highly efficient electric vehicles: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/17/opinion/electric-scooters... https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/17/opinion/electric-scooters.... When you say "scooter" images of traffic in Mumbai pop into the minds of the upscale folks who write the rules so of course they ban anything that has two wheels and doesn't cost too much for the blue collar crowd.

NovemberWhiskey 7y ago

I'm surprised to hear someone say that New York City has "copious free and heavily subsidized parking"; how does that manifest itself, exactly? Living in Manhattan, that's not really my experience.

Spooky23 7y ago
It’s just a talking point. The hot thing is to be against street parking these days. There is free street parking in Manhattan, but nobody would describe it as copious.
- Eric_WVGG 7y ago
  Of course it's copious. Let's say the number of spaces in an average street is X. Most cars in those spaces are just sitting there all day, so the demand for those spaces is 10x. Okay, not copious. But the demand for moving down that street is 1000x. Now those spaces are egregious.
lg 7y ago
practically every street in manhattan is lined with free parking spaces, no meters and no required permits.
- toomuchtodo 7y ago
  That’s not free parking! Those are bike lanes pending barrier construction! :)
  - notJim 7y ago
    Having been to community meetings where those bike lanes are proposed, I can assure you it's nowhere near as easy as you make it sound.
    - nerfhammer 7y ago
      https://twitter.com/HillgateRes/status/1139224319161241603 https://twitter.com/HillgateRes/status/1139224319161241603
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
donohoe 7y ago
Let’s start with employee plans can allocate several hundred dollars pre-tax to parking but very limited amounts to subway and train. You can also argue that huge amounts of free street parking are subsidies, but limited areas to chain bikes. There is more, but those are the obvious ones to me.
- NovemberWhiskey 7y ago
  Pre-tax transport benefit plans at the federal level have had equivalent transit/parking amounts since 2016; not that the city has much control over that. NYC's own pre-tax program explicitly doesn't include parking. It's also probably worth mentioning that the city has a tax on off-street parking at 18.375% in Manhattan.
- baroffoos 7y ago
  Driving is also heavily subsidized by the fact that much of the cost of driving is externalized. When someone drives the fumes coming out of their car damage the health of everyone around them, that cost is paid for by everyone and not just the person driving so there is very little incentive to stop doing it.
  - dsfyu404ed 7y ago
    If you want to talk externalities then stress, frustration and mental health need to be taken into account on the public transit side of the equation. I'd put up with a hell of a lot of air pollution if it made the trains timely and not crowded and I'm not the only one who'd make that tradeoff.
    - tty2300 7y ago
      Stress, frustration and mental health are costs I have only ever experienced in a car. Riding my bike to work was one of the best things I ever did for my mental and physical health.
donjoe 7y ago
Does your car parking cost as much as renting a flat/sqm? I bet it does not. Where I live, parking space costs you about 15€/sqm/month on a single floor/no floor since it's 'public space'. A flat is avg. 22€/sqm/month and buildings in general come with 6 floors: we're closer to 6*22€/sqm/month for living space...
- NovemberWhiskey 7y ago
  I pay $512.84 per month for parking; it's valet parking because they stack multiple cars on elevators in the building basement. I don't know exactly how you want to characterize the floor space of that, but my gut feel is it's basically a similar cost to rent for an apartment per unit area.
- mechagodzilla 7y ago
  I think it probably comes pretty close - my friends with parking spaces in Manhattan pay $500+/mo
- lostlogin 7y ago
  I don’t want to argue for cars, but a square of something you can park on should definitely be cheaper per unit area than something you live in. I don’t think I’ve ever parked anywhere I’d happily live.
  - markdown 7y ago
    He must be thinking of Hong Kong: https://edition.cnn.com/travel/article/hong-kong-parking-space-intl/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/travel/article/hong-kong-parking-spa...
  - albedoa 7y ago
    You've imagined what it would be like to live in a parking space if it were to remain one of a block or a row of parking spaces. I don't think that's the point being made.
  - lotsofpulp 7y ago
    If there are fewer parking spots relative to demand compared to living spaces relative to demand, then parking may very well be more expensive. I don’t see why parking “should” inherently be cheaper, it’s always supply and demand determining price.
oh_sigh 7y ago
Every car parked on a street in Manhattan is taking advantage of free or subsidized parking.
- NovemberWhiskey 7y ago
  Well, there is some metered parking; admittedly not a whole lot. But street parking is not "copious" which implies an abundance relative to demand. If there were "copious free parking" in Manhattan, there wouldn't be hundreds of parking garages charging up to $70 a day during the week, would there?
  - oh_sigh 7y ago
    Copious can mean abundant in either supply or quantity.
bobthepanda 7y ago
This is more true in the outer boroughs. Lots of circling the block in Flushing, for example.

melling 7y ago

It has been 80 years since we built new lines? We could definitely use more. Extending the 7 to NJ would also be great. We jam all those buses through the Lincoln Tunnel every weekday. Found this on Wikipedia: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposed_expansion_of_the_New_York_City_Subway https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposed_expansion_of_the_Ne...

NovemberWhiskey 7y ago
Extending lines clearly isn't in the scope of the commenter; the 7 already got an extension to Hudson Yards a few years back and the first phase of the 2nd Ave extension came into operation recently as well. Speaking from my own selfish perspective, I think fixing the lines we do have is more of a priority than building new ones.
- melling 7y ago
  Only part of the 7 extension was completed. They didn’t complete one of the stations because of cost. You’re doing that thing where you think we can only do one or the other. It takes a long time to fix existing subways. You can’t simply close them down. Look at the L train. There’s no reason we can’t also expand the subway. Depending on where you build, it could go a lot faster.
sman393 7y ago
That could be a great idea, luckily the path train exists, although I've never commuted on it so I can't speak to its reliability.

blhack 7y ago

>banning or severely limiting... Watching this happen has been one of the most unbelievably frustrating things I’ve ever seen. I’m in Santa Monica right now, and figures I could park my car away from the beach, in a high density “car” area, then ride a scooter from there down to Venice Beach where my friend lives to say hi to him. It’s a minefield of seemingly random geofences which shut the scooter off and make you push it a few blocks into the allowed areas, or ordinances that allow skateboarding and bicycling, but not scooters, on what appear to be purpose built bike paths! The dumbest part is that you can ride a bike, or a scooter, or a skateboard, but none of these things if it has the amazing technology to make it useful beyond recreation (for non-enthusiasts): a motor. Honestly it just seems like neo-puritanical hatred of the idea that the motor makes it too easy. It makes me just want to say burn the whole then down (metaphorically) and I’ll just drive the biggest comfiest car I can find wherever I need to go.

tppiotrowski 7y ago
Have you considered buying your own scooter [1]? You can fold it and keep it in the trunk of your car. I bought a Xiaomi clone for $250 on Los Angeles craigslist and take it from Venice to the climbing gym in Culver City every week. It takes about 45 minutes which is faster than traffic on Venice Blvd or the metro. [1] https://www.walmart.com/ip/Xiaomi-Mi-Electric-Scooter-18-6-Miles-Long-range-Battery-Up-to-15-5-MPH-Easy-Fold-n-Carry-Design-Ultra-Lightweight-Adult-Electric-Scooter/578513945 https://www.walmart.com/ip/Xiaomi-Mi-Electric-Scooter-18-6-M...
- markdown 7y ago
  Walmart sells knock-offs? That looks like an original Xiomi and not a clone to me.
  - fwip 7y ago
    The knockoff came from Craigslist.
  - tppiotrowski 7y ago
    The linked one is original Xiaomi. I bought a clone off of Craigslist. The welding is not as nice and it uses MiniRobot app instead of Mi Home, but the battery and motor are holding up well. Here's a good video describing Xiamoi original vs. clone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CiXiKr47T8g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CiXiKr47T8g

ajross 7y ago

That's a misoptimization. New York City's subway and roads may be terribly inefficient relative to what they could be. They're still vastly more so than the rural transportation in the rest of the state. Pick the low hanging fruit before trying to squeeze out the last few percent. And in any case the existence of bad transportation policy isn't a reason not to celebrate a climate bill, so I don't get your point.

mikemotherwell 7y ago
Oh, so they lead off with REFRIGERANT MANAGEMENT did they? https://www.drawdown.org/solutions/materials/refrigerant-management https://www.drawdown.org/solutions/materials/refrigerant-man...
- ajross 7y ago
  Not sure if sarcasm. In fact the whole point of Drawdown is to enumerate all the possible fruit, both high and low hanging, and come up with numbers justifying their picking in parallel. So yeah, refrigerant management is part of the solution, and you can check their numbers for how much it would save and how much it would cost, and that is done deliberately to avoid nonsense like "why are you bothering with air conditioners?!". In contrast, the upthread comment seemed to be arguing that a blanket bill trying to establish a regulation framework for climate change is insincere because of minutiae about NYC's mismanaged transportation infrastructure. Going back to your snark: it's the equivalent of "Throw the whole Drawdown plan in the trash because China has too many air conditioners." See the problem with that logic?

xhgdvjky 7y ago

2nd Ave line?