5 ms·

Ellen Pao: Our world is LGBTQIA. Your workplace should be too

17 points by mlboykin 7y ago

madengr 7y ago
So what does the “IA” stand for?
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- patmcc 7y ago
  Intersex/Asexual usually.
- Sojuwa 7y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT#Intersex_inclusion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT#Intersex_inclusion LGBTTQQIAAP LGBTTIQQ2SA
  - kjeetgill 7y ago
    I suspect you've been downvoted because you've put out these long acronyms without (much) explaination and they may suspect, as I mistakenly did, that it was said in mockery. From the wiki page: The initialism LGBTTQQIAAP (lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, transsexual, queer, questioning, intersex, asexual, ally, pansexual)
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
metildaa 7y ago
There is a lot of hate from TERFs and religious groups towards the non-straight/non-cis community. I think the corporatization of pride parades (like this article advocates for) is both harmful and helpful, insofar as its a positive for those of us in the Overton window (eg: gay people like myself) but it drowns out those that society still violently rejects (Trans, enby, pan, poly, etc) with corporate advertising rather than forcing society to improve.
- 0815test 7y ago
  > but it drowns out those that society still violently rejects The big joke is that society is always going to be violently rejecting some outgroups; it's just a human universal to want to make scapegoats out of thin air. Labeling does not oppose this process; on the contrary, it facilitates and encourages it. There is value in explicitly promoting tolerance, inclusiveness and openness as real virtues; but to assume that meaningless quips like "your workplace should be LGBTQIA..." help this message is simply delusional. Your workplace should not be LGBTQIAetc.etc., and the less it gets involved with that sort of thing, the more LGBTQIA folks will be able to trust it to do the right thing in the long run.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
mfatica 7y ago
There's a lot of hate from LGBT back the other way too. Look at the massive backlash towards the straight pride parade. If you can be proud of being gay why can't I be proud of being straight?
- cknight 7y ago
  Because this is a misunderstanding of LGBT+ "Pride". It is not just "Pride" in the common sense - rather it is in opposition to Shame. Straight people have never been systematically subjected to shaming due to their sexuality or gender identity.
  - 0815test 7y ago
    "Pride" is not in opposition to shame; it's in opposition to modesty. Honor and integrity are in opposition to shame, but there's very little that's honorable, and much that is outright insolent and deliberately so, about pride parades. Edit: My comment might seem a bit too negative towards LGBTQ and that's definitely not my intention, so I'd like to mention advocacy of gay marriage as a positive example - something that does clearly point towards a public image of very real honor and integrity for this notable minority group. It's hard to deny its significant contrast to the recurring image of "pride parades".
    - cknight 7y ago
      I am not sure how much you've had to do with the LGBT+ community as a whole, but please do not reduce "Pride" to certain risque parts of certain glitzy annual parades. That is just a media-distilled version of the tip of a very big iceberg. Your comment is not just too negative, it is simply wrong. Without Pride, same-sex marriage would never have been possible. Definitions used for this sense of Pride (ripped from Google define, since they're good enough and I am lazy): "Confidence and self-respect as expressed by members of a group, typically one that has been socially marginalized, on the basis of their shared identity, culture, and experience." and "Consciousness of one's own dignity" (Antonym: Shame.) Note the Google definitions of Pride not being used in this sense: "The quality of having an excessively high opinion of oneself or one's importance." (Antonyms: modesty, humility) and "A feeling or deep pleasure or satisfaction derived from one's own achievements, the achievements of those with whom one is closely associated, or from qualities or possessions that are widely admired."
Havoc 7y ago
That abbreviation seems to grow by about two characters per year
- Pfhreak 7y ago
  If you are having trouble, you can use GSM for Gender and Sexual Minorities.
  - dingaling 7y ago
    Why conflate gender and sexuality, though? They're two different things. Gender identity absolutely must be accommodated in the workplace. But sexuality is on another orthogonal axis. What you do in the bedroom is irrelevant to what you do in the boardroom.
    - defertoreptar 7y ago
      Shouldn't both be irrelevant to what you do in the boardroom? What you're saying makes it sound like it's not okay to marginalize women in the workplace, but is ok to marginalize gay women.
- dfeojm-zlib 7y ago
  I understand up to "LBGT," but after that, it seems like fashionabilism victimology.
- RappingBoomer 7y ago
  your comment here implies wrongthinking on your part.
mlthoughts2018 7y ago
Why should a workplace embody properties of the greater community, as opposed to being a place where a person’s identity is only defined by their work and professional interactions?
- thosakwe 7y ago
  How can you embody properties of the “greater community,” if not all of the “greater community” is present?
  - mlthoughts2018 7y ago
    I’m asking why should it be considered good for people in a workplace to express (while at work) properties of a community that exists outside of the workplace? Why should cultures (of any kind) be actively celebrated at work for example? Workplaces are comprised of people who possess cultural attributes. Why is it common to believe this matters in some way that necessitates acknowledgement, discussion or celebration of those attributes while specifically being in the workplace? An example from my own life is parenthood. I’m a parent, yet I feel a strong moral and ethical duty to keep my parenthood culture out of my professional workplace. None of my coworkers owe me any sort of acknowledgement of my identity as a parent. In fact, apart from non-work conversations in which others opt in to participating, my coworkers ostensibly should not even know if I am a parent or not — it is simply not relevant and needs no accounting. I don’t see why this wouldn’t apply to any type of cultural attribute.
- y2bd 7y ago
  Because the vast majority of people have personal biases that they cannot completely just put away at the workplace.
  - mlthoughts2018 7y ago
    I don’t understand why this detail would be relevant to my original question. Can you say more?
- dang 7y ago
fortran77 7y ago
I completely agree with Ellen Pao about being aware and pro-active when it comes to workplace discrimination, including discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation. It's too bad that Ellen Pao doesn't think that fit people, people who believe the most responsible behavior is to not eat more food than you need, have a place in the workforce or in discussions.
- dang 7y ago
  Please don't start trolling HN with this topic again, or we will end up having to ban not only this account but your main account as well.
olivierduval 7y ago
I'm so sorry to be a white male programmer around 40! I'm so much in the crowd... "Around 4.5 percent of the US population is LGBT, [...] the LGBT population is young, [...] under 34 years of age—and growing." ... ok, it's a typical marketing bullshit: look all the money that you could earn selling to these people!!! Actually, she doesn't give a shit about the people, only about a "new" market. Moreover, she failed to understand the difference between "being LGBT" and "showing to be LGBT". I don't think that there are MORE LGBT (nor less either)... only that they need less to hide (which is not good or bad: your work shouldn't be where you live your life, only where you earn money anyway).
- pseudalopex 7y ago
  What does you being white or male or around 40 have to do this article? The article says that employees are least likely to answer questions about gender or sexual orientation. Project Include's case studies[1] suggest that the surveys include questions about religion, marriage, children, disabled family members, and other things people could also hide. Why don't they? [1] https://projectinclude.org/case_studies/ https://projectinclude.org/case_studies/
  - olivierduval 7y ago
    > The article says that employees are least likely to answer questions about gender or sexual orientation In France (where I live), that kind of question would be illegal. There's quite a clear separation between personal life and professional life: whatever you do outside work is your only business, and nobody will matter (and shouldn't, as it would be illegal). In a way, in France, the accepted policy is like the "Don't ask, don't tell" policy that was (still is?) the US Army policy if I remember. Of course it might be only a cultural difference
- dang 7y ago
  This comment breaks the site guidelines in a bunch of ways. This is particularly awful: > Actually, she doesn't give a shit about the people Personal attacks will get you banned here. Would you please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and use HN as intended?
zxcvvcxz 7y ago
No, we shouldn't encourage degeneracy in the workplace. Come on people.

17 points by mlboykin 7y ago

madengr 7y ago

So what does the “IA” stand for?

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
patmcc 7y ago
Intersex/Asexual usually.
Sojuwa 7y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT#Intersex_inclusion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT#Intersex_inclusion LGBTTQQIAAP LGBTTIQQ2SA
- kjeetgill 7y ago
  I suspect you've been downvoted because you've put out these long acronyms without (much) explaination and they may suspect, as I mistakenly did, that it was said in mockery. From the wiki page: The initialism LGBTTQQIAAP (lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, transsexual, queer, questioning, intersex, asexual, ally, pansexual)
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

metildaa 7y ago

There is a lot of hate from TERFs and religious groups towards the non-straight/non-cis community. I think the corporatization of pride parades (like this article advocates for) is both harmful and helpful, insofar as its a positive for those of us in the Overton window (eg: gay people like myself) but it drowns out those that society still violently rejects (Trans, enby, pan, poly, etc) with corporate advertising rather than forcing society to improve.

0815test 7y ago
> but it drowns out those that society still violently rejects The big joke is that society is always going to be violently rejecting some outgroups; it's just a human universal to want to make scapegoats out of thin air. Labeling does not oppose this process; on the contrary, it facilitates and encourages it. There is value in explicitly promoting tolerance, inclusiveness and openness as real virtues; but to assume that meaningless quips like "your workplace should be LGBTQIA..." help this message is simply delusional. Your workplace should not be LGBTQIAetc.etc., and the less it gets involved with that sort of thing, the more LGBTQIA folks will be able to trust it to do the right thing in the long run.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

mfatica 7y ago

There's a lot of hate from LGBT back the other way too. Look at the massive backlash towards the straight pride parade. If you can be proud of being gay why can't I be proud of being straight?

cknight 7y ago
Because this is a misunderstanding of LGBT+ "Pride". It is not just "Pride" in the common sense - rather it is in opposition to Shame. Straight people have never been systematically subjected to shaming due to their sexuality or gender identity.
- 0815test 7y ago
  "Pride" is not in opposition to shame; it's in opposition to modesty. Honor and integrity are in opposition to shame, but there's very little that's honorable, and much that is outright insolent and deliberately so, about pride parades. Edit: My comment might seem a bit too negative towards LGBTQ and that's definitely not my intention, so I'd like to mention advocacy of gay marriage as a positive example - something that does clearly point towards a public image of very real honor and integrity for this notable minority group. It's hard to deny its significant contrast to the recurring image of "pride parades".
  - cknight 7y ago
    I am not sure how much you've had to do with the LGBT+ community as a whole, but please do not reduce "Pride" to certain risque parts of certain glitzy annual parades. That is just a media-distilled version of the tip of a very big iceberg. Your comment is not just too negative, it is simply wrong. Without Pride, same-sex marriage would never have been possible. Definitions used for this sense of Pride (ripped from Google define, since they're good enough and I am lazy): "Confidence and self-respect as expressed by members of a group, typically one that has been socially marginalized, on the basis of their shared identity, culture, and experience." and "Consciousness of one's own dignity" (Antonym: Shame.) Note the Google definitions of Pride not being used in this sense: "The quality of having an excessively high opinion of oneself or one's importance." (Antonyms: modesty, humility) and "A feeling or deep pleasure or satisfaction derived from one's own achievements, the achievements of those with whom one is closely associated, or from qualities or possessions that are widely admired."

Havoc 7y ago

That abbreviation seems to grow by about two characters per year

Pfhreak 7y ago
If you are having trouble, you can use GSM for Gender and Sexual Minorities.
- dingaling 7y ago
  Why conflate gender and sexuality, though? They're two different things. Gender identity absolutely must be accommodated in the workplace. But sexuality is on another orthogonal axis. What you do in the bedroom is irrelevant to what you do in the boardroom.
  - defertoreptar 7y ago
    Shouldn't both be irrelevant to what you do in the boardroom? What you're saying makes it sound like it's not okay to marginalize women in the workplace, but is ok to marginalize gay women.
dfeojm-zlib 7y ago
I understand up to "LBGT," but after that, it seems like fashionabilism victimology.
RappingBoomer 7y ago
your comment here implies wrongthinking on your part.

mlthoughts2018 7y ago

Why should a workplace embody properties of the greater community, as opposed to being a place where a person’s identity is only defined by their work and professional interactions?

thosakwe 7y ago
How can you embody properties of the “greater community,” if not all of the “greater community” is present?
- mlthoughts2018 7y ago
  I’m asking why should it be considered good for people in a workplace to express (while at work) properties of a community that exists outside of the workplace? Why should cultures (of any kind) be actively celebrated at work for example? Workplaces are comprised of people who possess cultural attributes. Why is it common to believe this matters in some way that necessitates acknowledgement, discussion or celebration of those attributes while specifically being in the workplace? An example from my own life is parenthood. I’m a parent, yet I feel a strong moral and ethical duty to keep my parenthood culture out of my professional workplace. None of my coworkers owe me any sort of acknowledgement of my identity as a parent. In fact, apart from non-work conversations in which others opt in to participating, my coworkers ostensibly should not even know if I am a parent or not — it is simply not relevant and needs no accounting. I don’t see why this wouldn’t apply to any type of cultural attribute.
y2bd 7y ago
Because the vast majority of people have personal biases that they cannot completely just put away at the workplace.
- mlthoughts2018 7y ago
  I don’t understand why this detail would be relevant to my original question. Can you say more?
dang 7y ago

fortran77 7y ago

I completely agree with Ellen Pao about being aware and pro-active when it comes to workplace discrimination, including discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation. It's too bad that Ellen Pao doesn't think that fit people, people who believe the most responsible behavior is to not eat more food than you need, have a place in the workforce or in discussions.

dang 7y ago
Please don't start trolling HN with this topic again, or we will end up having to ban not only this account but your main account as well.

olivierduval 7y ago

I'm so sorry to be a white male programmer around 40! I'm so much in the crowd... "Around 4.5 percent of the US population is LGBT, [...] the LGBT population is young, [...] under 34 years of age—and growing." ... ok, it's a typical marketing bullshit: look all the money that you could earn selling to these people!!! Actually, she doesn't give a shit about the people, only about a "new" market. Moreover, she failed to understand the difference between "being LGBT" and "showing to be LGBT". I don't think that there are MORE LGBT (nor less either)... only that they need less to hide (which is not good or bad: your work shouldn't be where you live your life, only where you earn money anyway).

pseudalopex 7y ago
What does you being white or male or around 40 have to do this article? The article says that employees are least likely to answer questions about gender or sexual orientation. Project Include's case studies[1] suggest that the surveys include questions about religion, marriage, children, disabled family members, and other things people could also hide. Why don't they? [1] https://projectinclude.org/case_studies/ https://projectinclude.org/case_studies/
- olivierduval 7y ago
  > The article says that employees are least likely to answer questions about gender or sexual orientation In France (where I live), that kind of question would be illegal. There's quite a clear separation between personal life and professional life: whatever you do outside work is your only business, and nobody will matter (and shouldn't, as it would be illegal). In a way, in France, the accepted policy is like the "Don't ask, don't tell" policy that was (still is?) the US Army policy if I remember. Of course it might be only a cultural difference
dang 7y ago
This comment breaks the site guidelines in a bunch of ways. This is particularly awful: > Actually, she doesn't give a shit about the people Personal attacks will get you banned here. Would you please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and use HN as intended?

zxcvvcxz 7y ago

No, we shouldn't encourage degeneracy in the workplace. Come on people.