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> and people who have had higher testosterone for most of their life retain all of these advantages. Transgender woman here. The lack of testosterone in my bl

> and people who have had higher testosterone for most of their life retain all of these advantages. Transgender woman here. The lack of testosterone in my blood resulted in my muscle mass reducing to the point that I cannot do regular push-ups anymore. Granted, I could have trained if I wanted to retain this muscle mass but didn't. I also have to take supplements as prescribed my by healthcare provider to retain bone density. Both of those facts are well documented. IMO athletes should be weighted & tested and then put in devisions as is done in boxing. A heavyweight will never fight a light flyweight. The same concept should be applied independently of gender.

microcolonel 7y ago
> IMO athletes should be weighted & tested and then put in devisions as is done in boxing. A heavyweight will never fight a light flyweight. That's certainly an option, but if that's it, then that's the end of women's and girls' leagues. I don't particularly enjoy watching sports, and I can't name more than a couple athletes of any league, but it seems to me like a lot of people will be very disappointed by that. > The lack of testosterone in my blood resulted in my muscle mass reducing to the point that I cannot do regular push-ups anymore. Granted, I could have trained if I wanted to retain this muscle mass but didn't. This takes time, is more what I was getting at. I didn't write it all that well in my original comment so I guess it's going to get ripped to shreds. ;- )
- Raphmedia 7y ago
  > then that's the end of women's and girls' leagues So what? Why should we have "women's hockey" and not "lightweight hockey"? This would insure that everyone can compete in their division independently of gender. This is pretty much already what's happening but with a naming system based on gender. The ability to carry children or lactate is pretty much useless as a differentiator of skills. Some athletes would probably also push themselves to reach the division above their current one as if often done in boxing and this would results in interesting sportsmanship. Again, this is my merely my opinion and I'm sure that this would require more thought than the few minutes I've spent pondering the question. > This takes time This happened in a few months. Granted, I'm a programmer and my only exercise is hiking.
  - JamesBarney 7y ago
    Because the lightweight hockey would still be dominated by men. In most sports that require power/speed men still maintain a significant advantage even for size. Also many sports require people of varying body sizes for different positions. In football for instance a wide receiver will look very different from a lineman.
    - Raphmedia 7y ago
      When I said "weighted & tested", I meant it as some magical way that would ensure that individuals of similar body type and physical characteristics are grouped together independently of gender. Taking boxing as an example again, sure if you put a female heavyweight (179 pounds / 81 kg) against a male heavyweight (201 pounds / 91 kg) the male will dominate. But if you standardize the divisions and have her compete against an equal the situation might be different. The again, you would have to take into account things like bone density, etc. In a sport like boxing, that's not very straightforward to do because of the fact that individuals with testosterone usually have greater upper body strength and that's a big advantage. In a team sport, this might be different since they allow for the team to be balanced depending on their members. For example, some individuals might have greater endurance but lower strength, etc. I'm sure that we would also see a more diverse cast of males as opposed to only "peak athletes" (7 ft+ basketball players, super heavyweight hockey players, etc.) and that would be great. I do agree that's it's a complicated question that should be deeply analysed and that we won't come to a solution in this comment section. However, a statement such at that one from the article is simply anachronistic and wrong in 2019. This isn't the right way to tackle the problem. "mandating that healthy athletes undergo medically unnecessary interventions in order to compete [...] These changes—including reduced muscle and increased fat—are supposed to produce the kind of body that Stéphane Bermon, Director of the IAAF Health and Science Department, has presented as the “ideal female phenotype” at scientific conferences."
      - dogma1138 7y ago
        If you put a mediocre male featherweight against a female heavyweight champion in any contact sports the male would pummel her into a pulp we had these experiments before in show matches. Gold medal women winners would not pass the men’s qualifiers in most Olympic sports, in fact in many of them the world record for women isn’t enough to pass the qualifiers for mens. Anyone who is advocating turning sports into coed brackets has never competed in their life professionally on at least a national level or they don’t mind women not wining a single match from that point onwards. Now as far as transwomen (I’m assuming that’s the correct term for M2F gender reassignment) in professional sports this would likely require a separate bracket if we get to the point where there is a sufficient mass of trans athletes, or if there will be explicit proof that it doesn’t matter allowing them to compete in the women’s bracket under certain conditions. However the doesn’t matter is also a tricky part there is a big difference between someone who transitioned before going through puberty and someone who transitioned 6 months ago. Humans are a dimorphic species males are stronger, faster have better response time and ironically when trained are even more flexible than females because they are stronger and have better joint stability. The irony is also that the closer you get to peak performance the wider this gap gets which is why while in say high school track or varsity basketball some females can play in the same ballpark as males once you go into professional sports and Olympic sports they might as well not be the same species.
- lordCarbonFiber 7y ago
  You're getting "ripped to shreds" because it doesn't sound like you really know much about the topic. Muscle and bone density changes on hormone replacement therapy start happening pretty darn fast and the effort required to maintain or increase it increases significantly (personal anecdote n=1). Best I can tell, and generally supported by the science, doom and gloom about the end of women's leagues if they aren't trans exclusionary seems greatly exaggerated.

microcolonel 7y ago

> IMO athletes should be weighted & tested and then put in devisions as is done in boxing. A heavyweight will never fight a light flyweight. That's certainly an option, but if that's it, then that's the end of women's and girls' leagues. I don't particularly enjoy watching sports, and I can't name more than a couple athletes of any league, but it seems to me like a lot of people will be very disappointed by that. > The lack of testosterone in my blood resulted in my muscle mass reducing to the point that I cannot do regular push-ups anymore. Granted, I could have trained if I wanted to retain this muscle mass but didn't. This takes time, is more what I was getting at. I didn't write it all that well in my original comment so I guess it's going to get ripped to shreds. ;- )

Raphmedia 7y ago
> then that's the end of women's and girls' leagues So what? Why should we have "women's hockey" and not "lightweight hockey"? This would insure that everyone can compete in their division independently of gender. This is pretty much already what's happening but with a naming system based on gender. The ability to carry children or lactate is pretty much useless as a differentiator of skills. Some athletes would probably also push themselves to reach the division above their current one as if often done in boxing and this would results in interesting sportsmanship. Again, this is my merely my opinion and I'm sure that this would require more thought than the few minutes I've spent pondering the question. > This takes time This happened in a few months. Granted, I'm a programmer and my only exercise is hiking.
- JamesBarney 7y ago
  Because the lightweight hockey would still be dominated by men. In most sports that require power/speed men still maintain a significant advantage even for size. Also many sports require people of varying body sizes for different positions. In football for instance a wide receiver will look very different from a lineman.
  - Raphmedia 7y ago
    When I said "weighted & tested", I meant it as some magical way that would ensure that individuals of similar body type and physical characteristics are grouped together independently of gender. Taking boxing as an example again, sure if you put a female heavyweight (179 pounds / 81 kg) against a male heavyweight (201 pounds / 91 kg) the male will dominate. But if you standardize the divisions and have her compete against an equal the situation might be different. The again, you would have to take into account things like bone density, etc. In a sport like boxing, that's not very straightforward to do because of the fact that individuals with testosterone usually have greater upper body strength and that's a big advantage. In a team sport, this might be different since they allow for the team to be balanced depending on their members. For example, some individuals might have greater endurance but lower strength, etc. I'm sure that we would also see a more diverse cast of males as opposed to only "peak athletes" (7 ft+ basketball players, super heavyweight hockey players, etc.) and that would be great. I do agree that's it's a complicated question that should be deeply analysed and that we won't come to a solution in this comment section. However, a statement such at that one from the article is simply anachronistic and wrong in 2019. This isn't the right way to tackle the problem. "mandating that healthy athletes undergo medically unnecessary interventions in order to compete [...] These changes—including reduced muscle and increased fat—are supposed to produce the kind of body that Stéphane Bermon, Director of the IAAF Health and Science Department, has presented as the “ideal female phenotype” at scientific conferences."
    - dogma1138 7y ago
      If you put a mediocre male featherweight against a female heavyweight champion in any contact sports the male would pummel her into a pulp we had these experiments before in show matches. Gold medal women winners would not pass the men’s qualifiers in most Olympic sports, in fact in many of them the world record for women isn’t enough to pass the qualifiers for mens. Anyone who is advocating turning sports into coed brackets has never competed in their life professionally on at least a national level or they don’t mind women not wining a single match from that point onwards. Now as far as transwomen (I’m assuming that’s the correct term for M2F gender reassignment) in professional sports this would likely require a separate bracket if we get to the point where there is a sufficient mass of trans athletes, or if there will be explicit proof that it doesn’t matter allowing them to compete in the women’s bracket under certain conditions. However the doesn’t matter is also a tricky part there is a big difference between someone who transitioned before going through puberty and someone who transitioned 6 months ago. Humans are a dimorphic species males are stronger, faster have better response time and ironically when trained are even more flexible than females because they are stronger and have better joint stability. The irony is also that the closer you get to peak performance the wider this gap gets which is why while in say high school track or varsity basketball some females can play in the same ballpark as males once you go into professional sports and Olympic sports they might as well not be the same species.
lordCarbonFiber 7y ago
You're getting "ripped to shreds" because it doesn't sound like you really know much about the topic. Muscle and bone density changes on hormone replacement therapy start happening pretty darn fast and the effort required to maintain or increase it increases significantly (personal anecdote n=1). Best I can tell, and generally supported by the science, doom and gloom about the end of women's leagues if they aren't trans exclusionary seems greatly exaggerated.