4 ms·

>> "Before the vaccine, measles infected more than 3 million Americans and killed more than 400 of them each year. One in four people who get measles are likely

>> "Before the vaccine, measles infected more than 3 million Americans and killed more than 400 of them each year. One in four people who get measles are likely to be hospitalized and one or two in 1,000 are likely to die, the C.D.C. reports." So, after vaccines started, measles mortality grew an order of magnitude worse? (According to presumably conservative government's estimate). Am I the only one who thinks, that anti-vaxing has nothing to do with perceived safety of vaccines, and mostly reflects perceived safety of vaccine facilitators? edit: after boeing 737 max troubles, we learnt, that boeing employees serve part time in capacity of government regulators, approving their own creation. Isn't it possible, that the same goes in the HRSA injury program?

pulisse 7y ago
> So, after vaccines started, measles mortality grew an order of magnitude worse? (According to presumably conservative government's estimate). Am I the only one who thinks, that anti-vaxing has nothing to do with perceived safety of vaccines, and mostly reflects perceived safety of vaccine facilitators? You imply that vaccines cause that increase, but wouldn't a more plausible explanation be that people who contract measles despite being vaccinated are more likely to be people with subpar immune systems?
- nbabitskiy 7y ago
  No, I don't imply that vaccines caused the increase, however, the NYT writers make it seem that vaccination caused it. Also the article doesn't say what part of added mortality is amid the vaccinated people. If your reading was correct, and doctors killed 7-15 times as many as nature, because they vaxed kids unfit for vaccination, it would make the argument much worse; but the authors didn't say that.
yehosef 7y ago
It's just a mixup in numbers - the number of 1/2 per 1000 is often thrown around (perhaps that's global.. not sure) and the 400/3M are the US numbers from the 50's (pre-vaccination). The measles hits people harder if they are weak/malnourished. A recent outbreak in Madagascar (https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/madagascar-measles-epidemic-1.5097610 https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/madagascar-measles-epidemic-1...) hit a 10/1000 rate (1200/115,000), which is x100 the US rate in the 50's.
- nbabitskiy 7y ago
  Thus the article in the NYT, by a Pulitzer prize winner no less, attempting to reconcile trust issues, ends up as a pile of randomly copy-pasted data. I'd say this communication has started on a wrong foot. If a reporter of a huge newspaper can't be arsed to get it right, what kind of trust can we have in underpaid, anonymous government clerks, responsible for both scientific evaluation and logistic execution of vaccination?
  - yehosef 7y ago
    Welcome to the wacky-zany world of vaccines misinformation. Note - I don't claim anti-vaxxers don't have mistakes and misinformation - but it's coming for a different place. Anti-vaxxers are motivated by trying to save people from harm. Pro-vaxxers are motivated by trying to save people from harm and around $2000 per child (that complies with the vaccination schedule x3.5M children born in US each year.) The vaccine manufacturers make the money but there is "trickle-down-economics" where accomplices are duly rewarded (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-merck-gerberding/former-cdc-head-lands-vaccine-job-at-merck-idUSTRE5BK2K520091221 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-merck-gerberding/former-c...).

pulisse 7y ago

> So, after vaccines started, measles mortality grew an order of magnitude worse? (According to presumably conservative government's estimate). Am I the only one who thinks, that anti-vaxing has nothing to do with perceived safety of vaccines, and mostly reflects perceived safety of vaccine facilitators? You imply that vaccines cause that increase, but wouldn't a more plausible explanation be that people who contract measles despite being vaccinated are more likely to be people with subpar immune systems?

nbabitskiy 7y ago
No, I don't imply that vaccines caused the increase, however, the NYT writers make it seem that vaccination caused it. Also the article doesn't say what part of added mortality is amid the vaccinated people. If your reading was correct, and doctors killed 7-15 times as many as nature, because they vaxed kids unfit for vaccination, it would make the argument much worse; but the authors didn't say that.

yehosef 7y ago

It's just a mixup in numbers - the number of 1/2 per 1000 is often thrown around (perhaps that's global.. not sure) and the 400/3M are the US numbers from the 50's (pre-vaccination). The measles hits people harder if they are weak/malnourished. A recent outbreak in Madagascar (https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/madagascar-measles-epidemic-1.5097610 https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/madagascar-measles-epidemic-1...) hit a 10/1000 rate (1200/115,000), which is x100 the US rate in the 50's.

nbabitskiy 7y ago
Thus the article in the NYT, by a Pulitzer prize winner no less, attempting to reconcile trust issues, ends up as a pile of randomly copy-pasted data. I'd say this communication has started on a wrong foot. If a reporter of a huge newspaper can't be arsed to get it right, what kind of trust can we have in underpaid, anonymous government clerks, responsible for both scientific evaluation and logistic execution of vaccination?
- yehosef 7y ago
  Welcome to the wacky-zany world of vaccines misinformation. Note - I don't claim anti-vaxxers don't have mistakes and misinformation - but it's coming for a different place. Anti-vaxxers are motivated by trying to save people from harm. Pro-vaxxers are motivated by trying to save people from harm and around $2000 per child (that complies with the vaccination schedule x3.5M children born in US each year.) The vaccine manufacturers make the money but there is "trickle-down-economics" where accomplices are duly rewarded (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-merck-gerberding/former-cdc-head-lands-vaccine-job-at-merck-idUSTRE5BK2K520091221 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-merck-gerberding/former-c...).