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Increased use of airplanes is one factor in why US greenhouse gas emissions grew last year after years of decline: https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/20

Increased use of airplanes is one factor in why US greenhouse gas emissions grew last year after years of decline: https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/2019/1/11/18177118/airlines-climate-change-emissions-travel https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/2019/1/11/1817711...

airstrike 7y ago
U.S. airlines != Amazon cargo. How do you propose Amazon ship their products? Rail? Amazon is effectively just replacing UPS / FedEx. In the long run, the net result to society is the same whether UPS, FedEx or Amazon flies the plane (assuming every plane operates at the same capacity and have equal fuel efficiency). The pollution from these planes is a function of how much people shop online, not which company flies the plane.
- makerofspoons 7y ago
  I propose Amazon and consumers pay for the environmental damage shipping these products using fossil fuels causes.
  - Cyph0n 7y ago
    Good luck calculating that! If you do, make sure to offset that with: (1) the reduction in retail space use for products, (2) the reduced amount of cars on the road, etc. etc.
    - penagwin 7y ago
      Not to mention, even after you somehow take into affect all of the various variables at play here, they can easily claim you miscalculated and just wave off the concerns "Oh Amazon is a Green Initiative Company™.... blah blah blah"
      - ericd 7y ago
        Look into carbon tax proposals if you’re interested in learning about it.
    - esoterica 7y ago
      Have you never heard of a carbon tax?
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
    - anchpop 7y ago
      If we added a carbon tax to the sale of gas (ideally paid depending on how efficient your car is, but that's a pipe dream), then we wouldn't have to consider the reduced amount of cars on the road because Amazon would save that much money by not paying it when they don't drive.
  - penagwin 7y ago
    We actually have a system in place to do exactly this. The EPA + Taxes (of various kinds) are how companies/individuals pay for environmental damage, and it's also how companies/individuals pay to protect the environment. Cleanups use tax money, research into potential regulations to minimize impact uses tax money, etc. So it's not some kind of outlandish idea, but at the moment the EPA is REALLY buddy/buddy with large companies so they're currently effectively neutered.
    - ericd 7y ago
      I think the parent post is talking about something more like a carbon tax, which we don’t have in place.
- reaperducer 7y ago
  How do you propose Amazon ship their products? Rail? Amazon ships by rail already. I see Amazon Prime-branded trailers on flatbed rail cars tearing across the country all the time. And the number of Prime-branded tractor trailers I see on the highways between cities has grown exponentially in the last year or so.
  - lostapathy 7y ago
    That may have more to do with your proximity to a single (newer) warehouse than a true exponential increase. You’re either located somewhere their trucks pass or you aren’t.
    - reaperducer 7y ago
      Except that I've spent the majority of the last year traveling between cities in seven states.
  - Gravityloss 7y ago
    Us rail freight is amazing. Have seen these low slung cars with two stacked containers. Wheels were at the ends.
  - 0xffff2 7y ago
    Sure. Honestly, how much utility does 2 day shipping really have? Is it really enough to justify the increased emissions of flying a package across the country instead of using a more efficient method? Of course that's not really Amazon's problem. We really need more reasonable taxes on fossil fuels that make it cost-prohibitive for Amazon to rely on air shipping.
    - justaguyhere 7y ago
      We really need more reasonable taxes on fossil fuels that make it cost-prohibitive And more awareness among consumers - how often do we need same day/next day delivery? I bet not that often It would be nice for consumers to support local businesses instead of always buying from mega corporations...
- ori_b 7y ago
  > How do you propose Amazon ship their products? Rail? That would be wonderful.
  - nordsieck 7y ago
    >> How do you propose Amazon ship their products? Rail? > That would be wonderful. Given the number of prime subscribers, most of the US disagrees with you. 2 day shipping is simply not going to happen on rail.
    - briffle 7y ago
      2 day shipping is cost effective to amazon when most goods are near the customer. 2 day shipping cross country is much different than driving the amazon truck to the nearest post office distribution center for local delivery. They need to get those goods that are most common to most of their warehouses.
      - nordsieck 7y ago
        > 2 day shipping is cost effective to amazon when most goods are near the customer. This is true. However, Amazon wants "2 day shipping" to be 2 day shipping, not probably 2 day shipping, which means they need to deal with the long tail of orders. And for that, you need airplanes.
gok 7y ago
All of global aviation, passengers and freight, constitute around 2% of humanity's CO2 emissions. I know it's a great pincushion--who can avoid hating airlines?--but it's a staggeringly tiny contributor to climate change.
- burkaman 7y ago
  2% is not "staggeringly tiny". Also, the only source I can find for that is the airlines themselves: https://www.iata.org/pressroom/facts_figures/fact_sheets/Documents/fact-sheet-climate-change.pdf https://www.iata.org/pressroom/facts_figures/fact_sheets/Doc... According to the IPCC, CO2 emissions are only 1/4-1/2 of aviation's impact on climate change. In 1999 they estimated the total impact as 3.5%, and projected out what will happen as aviation use increases, which it has. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_impact_of_aviation#Total_climate_effects https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_impact_of_aviati...
  - kansface 7y ago
    According to literally the first thing I found on the Internet, the airlines take in about 1% of the world's GDP which doesn't sound like a great deal when they emit twice that much in CO2. However, I'm guessing the businesses they support that wouldn't exist otherwise easily make up the difference. I'd guess ~10% of the GDP (most international tourism, shipping, business meetings).
    - jschwartzi 7y ago
      What are you basing that 10% estimate on?
peter303 7y ago
One explanation: Trump coal. Plus the conversion to natural gas has flattened out. Methane is 40% less carbon per BTU than coal. But it still creates considerable CO2.

airstrike 7y ago

U.S. airlines != Amazon cargo. How do you propose Amazon ship their products? Rail? Amazon is effectively just replacing UPS / FedEx. In the long run, the net result to society is the same whether UPS, FedEx or Amazon flies the plane (assuming every plane operates at the same capacity and have equal fuel efficiency). The pollution from these planes is a function of how much people shop online, not which company flies the plane.

makerofspoons 7y ago
I propose Amazon and consumers pay for the environmental damage shipping these products using fossil fuels causes.
- Cyph0n 7y ago
  Good luck calculating that! If you do, make sure to offset that with: (1) the reduction in retail space use for products, (2) the reduced amount of cars on the road, etc. etc.
  - penagwin 7y ago
    Not to mention, even after you somehow take into affect all of the various variables at play here, they can easily claim you miscalculated and just wave off the concerns "Oh Amazon is a Green Initiative Company™.... blah blah blah"
    - ericd 7y ago
      Look into carbon tax proposals if you’re interested in learning about it.
  - esoterica 7y ago
    Have you never heard of a carbon tax?
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
  - anchpop 7y ago
    If we added a carbon tax to the sale of gas (ideally paid depending on how efficient your car is, but that's a pipe dream), then we wouldn't have to consider the reduced amount of cars on the road because Amazon would save that much money by not paying it when they don't drive.
- penagwin 7y ago
  We actually have a system in place to do exactly this. The EPA + Taxes (of various kinds) are how companies/individuals pay for environmental damage, and it's also how companies/individuals pay to protect the environment. Cleanups use tax money, research into potential regulations to minimize impact uses tax money, etc. So it's not some kind of outlandish idea, but at the moment the EPA is REALLY buddy/buddy with large companies so they're currently effectively neutered.
  - ericd 7y ago
    I think the parent post is talking about something more like a carbon tax, which we don’t have in place.
reaperducer 7y ago
How do you propose Amazon ship their products? Rail? Amazon ships by rail already. I see Amazon Prime-branded trailers on flatbed rail cars tearing across the country all the time. And the number of Prime-branded tractor trailers I see on the highways between cities has grown exponentially in the last year or so.
- lostapathy 7y ago
  That may have more to do with your proximity to a single (newer) warehouse than a true exponential increase. You’re either located somewhere their trucks pass or you aren’t.
  - reaperducer 7y ago
    Except that I've spent the majority of the last year traveling between cities in seven states.
- Gravityloss 7y ago
  Us rail freight is amazing. Have seen these low slung cars with two stacked containers. Wheels were at the ends.
- 0xffff2 7y ago
  Sure. Honestly, how much utility does 2 day shipping really have? Is it really enough to justify the increased emissions of flying a package across the country instead of using a more efficient method? Of course that's not really Amazon's problem. We really need more reasonable taxes on fossil fuels that make it cost-prohibitive for Amazon to rely on air shipping.
  - justaguyhere 7y ago
    We really need more reasonable taxes on fossil fuels that make it cost-prohibitive And more awareness among consumers - how often do we need same day/next day delivery? I bet not that often It would be nice for consumers to support local businesses instead of always buying from mega corporations...
ori_b 7y ago
> How do you propose Amazon ship their products? Rail? That would be wonderful.
- nordsieck 7y ago
  >> How do you propose Amazon ship their products? Rail? > That would be wonderful. Given the number of prime subscribers, most of the US disagrees with you. 2 day shipping is simply not going to happen on rail.
  - briffle 7y ago
    2 day shipping is cost effective to amazon when most goods are near the customer. 2 day shipping cross country is much different than driving the amazon truck to the nearest post office distribution center for local delivery. They need to get those goods that are most common to most of their warehouses.
    - nordsieck 7y ago
      > 2 day shipping is cost effective to amazon when most goods are near the customer. This is true. However, Amazon wants "2 day shipping" to be 2 day shipping, not probably 2 day shipping, which means they need to deal with the long tail of orders. And for that, you need airplanes.

gok 7y ago

All of global aviation, passengers and freight, constitute around 2% of humanity's CO2 emissions. I know it's a great pincushion--who can avoid hating airlines?--but it's a staggeringly tiny contributor to climate change.

burkaman 7y ago
2% is not "staggeringly tiny". Also, the only source I can find for that is the airlines themselves: https://www.iata.org/pressroom/facts_figures/fact_sheets/Documents/fact-sheet-climate-change.pdf https://www.iata.org/pressroom/facts_figures/fact_sheets/Doc... According to the IPCC, CO2 emissions are only 1/4-1/2 of aviation's impact on climate change. In 1999 they estimated the total impact as 3.5%, and projected out what will happen as aviation use increases, which it has. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_impact_of_aviation#Total_climate_effects https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_impact_of_aviati...
- kansface 7y ago
  According to literally the first thing I found on the Internet, the airlines take in about 1% of the world's GDP which doesn't sound like a great deal when they emit twice that much in CO2. However, I'm guessing the businesses they support that wouldn't exist otherwise easily make up the difference. I'd guess ~10% of the GDP (most international tourism, shipping, business meetings).
  - jschwartzi 7y ago
    What are you basing that 10% estimate on?

peter303 7y ago

One explanation: Trump coal. Plus the conversion to natural gas has flattened out. Methane is 40% less carbon per BTU than coal. But it still creates considerable CO2.