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>But in this case, it seems like there's nothing left to take away, so what's the incentive to follow the rules? Minor beatings from angry guys with guns.

by rms 16y ago

hugh3 16y ago
As a high-profile US citizen military prisoner in a military prison within the United States, he probably doesn't have to worry about that too much. I'd much rather be guarded by soldiers than by civilian prison guards. If a soldier hits you, he has a commanding officer who is going to jump down his throat. If a civilian prison guard hits you, he has a union who's going to cover up for him.
tptacek 16y ago
At extreme risk of sanctimony, but worth it to me because I follow your comments: Maybe consider whether you want to be this glib about military prison guards. MCB Quantico is presumably staffed by the USMC. As I understand it: (1) People don't join the USMC and then get to choose to work as a brig guard stateside; these are people who volunteered to serve at an extremely difficult time. (2) The people who land in stateside posts tend to have first done a tour overseas; the "angry guys with guns" administering "minor beatings" are likely to be people who have already served their country in ways I can't possibly imagine doing myself. I might consider giving these people the benefit of the doubt. (I'm anti-war, a liberal dem, but I have a healthy dose of respect for people who volunteer for the armed services.) If you disagree, that's fine, I won't have a temper tantrum, but I thought it was worth saying. Incidentally, there's a Reddit AmA with an MCB Quantico brig guard running right now.
- MichaelSalib 16y ago
  The people who land in stateside posts tend to have first done a tour overseas Actually, that's less likely than one might think. Deployments to Iraq/Afghanistan are distributed in a very non-uniform manner throughout the military. See [1]. the "angry guys with guns" administering "minor beatings" are likely to be people who have already served their country in ways I can't possibly imagine doing myself. I don't think the implication was that the guards would abuse him because they were in the military -- but rather because they were in a position of power that tended to turn people into violent crazy people. Power corrupts and all, to say nothing of the Stanford prison experiment. [1] http://ricks.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2009/03/18/puzzlements_why_have_so_few_soldiers_and_marines_deployed http://ricks.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2009/03/18/puzzlements_...
  - tptacek 16y ago
    If you look at the crosstabs for those numbers, you find that the number of Marines in the "Corrections Specialist" MOS that haven't deployed at all are absolutely dwarfed by people with MOS like "Personnel Clerk" and "Finance Technician" and "Administrative Clerk" (and, "Combat Illustrator"? Really?). One gets the sense that "Corrections Specialists" do in fact deploy. The Stanford Prison Experiment is probably not a license to assume that anyone working as a prison guard is breaking the law and their own honor code. But, who knows.
- rms 16y ago
  I didn't mean to besmirch the honor of the prison guards... "angry" only meant that they would be angry because of the detainee not following the rules, not because they are inherently angry people. I was reasonably confident that said minor beatings were codified into what the guards are supposed to do. If Manning doesn't do one of the things he is not allowed to do, he will be forced to comply, and said force is likely to resemble a beating.

>But in this case, it seems like there's nothing left to take away, so what's the incentive to follow the rules? Minor beatings from angry guys with guns.

by rms 16y ago

>But in this case, it seems like there's nothing left to take away, so what's the incentive to follow the rules? Minor beatings from angry guys with guns.

hugh3 16y ago

As a high-profile US citizen military prisoner in a military prison within the United States, he probably doesn't have to worry about that too much. I'd much rather be guarded by soldiers than by civilian prison guards. If a soldier hits you, he has a commanding officer who is going to jump down his throat. If a civilian prison guard hits you, he has a union who's going to cover up for him.

tptacek 16y ago

At extreme risk of sanctimony, but worth it to me because I follow your comments: Maybe consider whether you want to be this glib about military prison guards. MCB Quantico is presumably staffed by the USMC. As I understand it: (1) People don't join the USMC and then get to choose to work as a brig guard stateside; these are people who volunteered to serve at an extremely difficult time. (2) The people who land in stateside posts tend to have first done a tour overseas; the "angry guys with guns" administering "minor beatings" are likely to be people who have already served their country in ways I can't possibly imagine doing myself. I might consider giving these people the benefit of the doubt. (I'm anti-war, a liberal dem, but I have a healthy dose of respect for people who volunteer for the armed services.) If you disagree, that's fine, I won't have a temper tantrum, but I thought it was worth saying. Incidentally, there's a Reddit AmA with an MCB Quantico brig guard running right now.

MichaelSalib 16y ago
The people who land in stateside posts tend to have first done a tour overseas Actually, that's less likely than one might think. Deployments to Iraq/Afghanistan are distributed in a very non-uniform manner throughout the military. See [1]. the "angry guys with guns" administering "minor beatings" are likely to be people who have already served their country in ways I can't possibly imagine doing myself. I don't think the implication was that the guards would abuse him because they were in the military -- but rather because they were in a position of power that tended to turn people into violent crazy people. Power corrupts and all, to say nothing of the Stanford prison experiment. [1] http://ricks.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2009/03/18/puzzlements_why_have_so_few_soldiers_and_marines_deployed http://ricks.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2009/03/18/puzzlements_...
- tptacek 16y ago
  If you look at the crosstabs for those numbers, you find that the number of Marines in the "Corrections Specialist" MOS that haven't deployed at all are absolutely dwarfed by people with MOS like "Personnel Clerk" and "Finance Technician" and "Administrative Clerk" (and, "Combat Illustrator"? Really?). One gets the sense that "Corrections Specialists" do in fact deploy. The Stanford Prison Experiment is probably not a license to assume that anyone working as a prison guard is breaking the law and their own honor code. But, who knows.
rms 16y ago
I didn't mean to besmirch the honor of the prison guards... "angry" only meant that they would be angry because of the detainee not following the rules, not because they are inherently angry people. I was reasonably confident that said minor beatings were codified into what the guards are supposed to do. If Manning doesn't do one of the things he is not allowed to do, he will be forced to comply, and said force is likely to resemble a beating.