5 ms·

How Dark Patterns can improve your conversion rates but damage your brand.

46 points by harrybr 16y ago

nowarninglabel 16y ago
That was a very good presentation, reminds me to continue to work more towards allowing user interaction without requiring registration.
lwhi 16y ago
TL:DR - Don't trick your users.
swombat 16y ago
Good point, though I would argue (and have argued here: http://swombat.com/2010/12/19/dark-patterns-good-for-business http://swombat.com/2010/12/19/dark-patterns-good-for-busines...) that in some business sectors, like, for example, the ultra-competitive registrar market, dark patterns are a necessity. If you don't use them you will go bankrupt. So before you discard dark patterns, make sure you're in a business that can afford to do so. Also, things that were considered dark patterns in other types of businesses (e.g. supermarkets), like laying out the shop in a way that will encourage you to buy more stuff, are now considered standard business practice. Will that happen to these patterns too?
- JoachimSchipper 16y ago
  I'd argue that if you can't make money without tricking people, you shouldn't be in that particular branch of business.
  - swombat 16y ago
    You can argue that all you want, but Ryanair, which epitomises the application of dark patterns in every aspect of its operations, is the largest or second-largest carrier in the world on a number of metrics (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryanair http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryanair). If you want to tell them they shouldn't be in the airline business, sure, but I'm not quite sure what your argument is then.
    - gommm 16y ago
      And I as a customer am happy to have Ryanair, Airasia and other low cost carriers like those. Even if they do use dark patterns, they provide me with possibilities I didn't have before they appeared...
      - j2d2j2d2 16y ago
        I have never been a customer of Ryanair. How difficult is it to navigate their dark patterns? Can I be a customer without getting entangled?
        gommm 16y ago
        It's not very difficult, you just have to be careful when filling the forms, they are a bit confusing... For example to refuse the travel insurance policy you must choose that you don't want it in the country selection box... Personally while I find it irritating, I find godaddy much worse and since unlike Ryanair they have cheap competitors without dark pattern I avoid them.
        stoney 16y ago
        You will probably get caught out the first time or two - they charge you a cheap up front price but then add lots of little charges for all kinds of extras (luggage, checkin, that kind of thing). Once you know the system it works well.
    - JoachimSchipper 16y ago
      My argument is "dark patterns bad, don't work on bad stuff", not "dark patterns don't work". Yes, some people will ignore the "bad" part and get rich doing so. That's not the only way to earn a living, though.
    - deleted 16y ago
      [deleted]
- naz 16y ago
  People were saying that about Yahoo, you can't make money without pop-ups, etc. before Google came along
  - swombat 16y ago
    Google didn't win because of their lack of popups, they won because of their massively superior search engine and revolutionary advertising business model. What's your revolutionary improvement in the domain name registrar market?
    - brown9-2 16y ago
      He doesn't need to have a revolutionary improvement to make his point. The point is that reliance on "dark patterns" or thinking that they are a necessity is a sign of lack of innovation. You can't assume that no other solution exists just because you've failed to come up with one.
    - stcredzero 16y ago
      I remember when I switched to Google. For me, the lack of popups was another big win.
      - noarchy 16y ago
        A clutter-free interface for Google was a big win for me. Yahoo had become a bloated mess by that point.
    - Goladus 16y ago
      If Google had pop-ups I would never have used it, ever. I probably wouldn't even have used it if it had any image-based ads, the banners and such that yahoo was making a killing on. The primary reason I started using google was its speed, simplicity, and the fact that it put search results I wanted exactly where I expected them. It felt good to use Google. It did not feel good to use search sites where half my time using it was spent downloading image files for advertisements. What's your revolutionary improvement in the domain name registrar market? That's a good question and I suspect if someone can implement an answer they'll get very rich. A key factor would be marketing their trustworthiness. In a market where dark patterns are rampant, a reputation of being "the one company that doesn't suck ass" can be very valuable.
- pygy_ 16y ago
  For an honest, reliable and competitive registrar, have a look at Gandi: http://en.gandi.net/ http://en.gandi.net/
hugh3 16y ago
Uh, can anyone explain what Dark Patterns are? It's not explained on the page, and while it may be explained if you want to sit through the slideshow I'd rather know what it's about before I start listening to some Englishman drone on about it.
- harrybr 16y ago
  Haha, fair point! I'm the droning Englishman giving the presentation. If you'd rather read than listen, check out the http://darkpatterns.org http://darkpatterns.org - it's a public wiki that I curate. Here's the definition of Dark Patterns from the site: "Dark Patterns are User Interfaces that are designed to trick people. Normally when you think of bad design', you think of laziness or mistakes. These are known as design anti-patterns. Dark Patterns are different – they are not mistakes, they are carefully crafted with a solid understanding of human psychology, and they do not have the user’s interests in mind."
  - hugh3 16y ago
    Ah, thanks for the explanation. (And I apologise for the "droning" remark, I actually only listened to the first half sentence of what you had to say -- I wasn't expecting to hear a voice when I clicked on the "next slide" button -- so I'm not qualified to judge your speaking voice...)
  - steveklabnik 16y ago
    Hey Harry- Just a quick note for your wiki, since I don't want to make Yet Another Account... on the Misdirection page: http://wiki.darkpatterns.org/Misdirection http://wiki.darkpatterns.org/Misdirection You mention ExpertsExchange has now hidden their information, and give this page as an example: http://www.experts-exchange.com/Applications/MS_Office/Excel/Q_20805544.html http://www.experts-exchange.com/Applications/MS_Office/Excel... But check this out: plug the URL into Google: https://encrypted.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&biw=1280&bih=636&q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.experts-exchange.com%2FApplications%2FMS_Office%2FExcel%2FQ_20805544.html&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai= https://encrypted.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&... Click "cached": http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:WHOsXsXzwjkJ:www.experts-exchange.com/Applications/MS_Office/Excel/Q_20805544.html+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:WHOsXsX... And then scroooooooooll again like before. There's the answers! They don't want to lose the Google juice, so they change the contents of the page so that Google sees it all, and regular people don't. You can also change your UA string to "Mozilla/5.0 (compatible; Googlebot/2.1; +http://www.google.com/bot.html http://www.google.com/bot.html) and it works...
amorphid 16y ago
Use of dark patterns is lazy and unsustainable.
gojomo 16y ago
I love the way Google Autocomplete serves as a window into the raw sentiments of the masses.

46 points by harrybr 16y ago

That was a very good presentation, reminds me to continue to work more towards allowing user interaction without requiring registration.

lwhi 16y ago

TL:DR - Don't trick your users.

swombat 16y ago

Good point, though I would argue (and have argued here: http://swombat.com/2010/12/19/dark-patterns-good-for-business http://swombat.com/2010/12/19/dark-patterns-good-for-busines...) that in some business sectors, like, for example, the ultra-competitive registrar market, dark patterns are a necessity. If you don't use them you will go bankrupt. So before you discard dark patterns, make sure you're in a business that can afford to do so. Also, things that were considered dark patterns in other types of businesses (e.g. supermarkets), like laying out the shop in a way that will encourage you to buy more stuff, are now considered standard business practice. Will that happen to these patterns too?

JoachimSchipper 16y ago
I'd argue that if you can't make money without tricking people, you shouldn't be in that particular branch of business.
- swombat 16y ago
  You can argue that all you want, but Ryanair, which epitomises the application of dark patterns in every aspect of its operations, is the largest or second-largest carrier in the world on a number of metrics (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryanair http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryanair). If you want to tell them they shouldn't be in the airline business, sure, but I'm not quite sure what your argument is then.
  - gommm 16y ago
    And I as a customer am happy to have Ryanair, Airasia and other low cost carriers like those. Even if they do use dark patterns, they provide me with possibilities I didn't have before they appeared...
    - j2d2j2d2 16y ago
      I have never been a customer of Ryanair. How difficult is it to navigate their dark patterns? Can I be a customer without getting entangled?
      - gommm 16y ago
        It's not very difficult, you just have to be careful when filling the forms, they are a bit confusing... For example to refuse the travel insurance policy you must choose that you don't want it in the country selection box... Personally while I find it irritating, I find godaddy much worse and since unlike Ryanair they have cheap competitors without dark pattern I avoid them.
      - stoney 16y ago
        You will probably get caught out the first time or two - they charge you a cheap up front price but then add lots of little charges for all kinds of extras (luggage, checkin, that kind of thing). Once you know the system it works well.
  - JoachimSchipper 16y ago
    My argument is "dark patterns bad, don't work on bad stuff", not "dark patterns don't work". Yes, some people will ignore the "bad" part and get rich doing so. That's not the only way to earn a living, though.
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]
naz 16y ago
People were saying that about Yahoo, you can't make money without pop-ups, etc. before Google came along
- swombat 16y ago
  Google didn't win because of their lack of popups, they won because of their massively superior search engine and revolutionary advertising business model. What's your revolutionary improvement in the domain name registrar market?
  - brown9-2 16y ago
    He doesn't need to have a revolutionary improvement to make his point. The point is that reliance on "dark patterns" or thinking that they are a necessity is a sign of lack of innovation. You can't assume that no other solution exists just because you've failed to come up with one.
  - stcredzero 16y ago
    I remember when I switched to Google. For me, the lack of popups was another big win.
    - noarchy 16y ago
      A clutter-free interface for Google was a big win for me. Yahoo had become a bloated mess by that point.
  - Goladus 16y ago
    If Google had pop-ups I would never have used it, ever. I probably wouldn't even have used it if it had any image-based ads, the banners and such that yahoo was making a killing on. The primary reason I started using google was its speed, simplicity, and the fact that it put search results I wanted exactly where I expected them. It felt good to use Google. It did not feel good to use search sites where half my time using it was spent downloading image files for advertisements. What's your revolutionary improvement in the domain name registrar market? That's a good question and I suspect if someone can implement an answer they'll get very rich. A key factor would be marketing their trustworthiness. In a market where dark patterns are rampant, a reputation of being "the one company that doesn't suck ass" can be very valuable.
pygy_ 16y ago
For an honest, reliable and competitive registrar, have a look at Gandi: http://en.gandi.net/ http://en.gandi.net/

hugh3 16y ago

Uh, can anyone explain what Dark Patterns are? It's not explained on the page, and while it may be explained if you want to sit through the slideshow I'd rather know what it's about before I start listening to some Englishman drone on about it.

harrybr 16y ago
Haha, fair point! I'm the droning Englishman giving the presentation. If you'd rather read than listen, check out the http://darkpatterns.org http://darkpatterns.org - it's a public wiki that I curate. Here's the definition of Dark Patterns from the site: "Dark Patterns are User Interfaces that are designed to trick people. Normally when you think of bad design', you think of laziness or mistakes. These are known as design anti-patterns. Dark Patterns are different – they are not mistakes, they are carefully crafted with a solid understanding of human psychology, and they do not have the user’s interests in mind."
- hugh3 16y ago
  Ah, thanks for the explanation. (And I apologise for the "droning" remark, I actually only listened to the first half sentence of what you had to say -- I wasn't expecting to hear a voice when I clicked on the "next slide" button -- so I'm not qualified to judge your speaking voice...)
- steveklabnik 16y ago
  Hey Harry- Just a quick note for your wiki, since I don't want to make Yet Another Account... on the Misdirection page: http://wiki.darkpatterns.org/Misdirection http://wiki.darkpatterns.org/Misdirection You mention ExpertsExchange has now hidden their information, and give this page as an example: http://www.experts-exchange.com/Applications/MS_Office/Excel/Q_20805544.html http://www.experts-exchange.com/Applications/MS_Office/Excel... But check this out: plug the URL into Google: https://encrypted.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&biw=1280&bih=636&q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.experts-exchange.com%2FApplications%2FMS_Office%2FExcel%2FQ_20805544.html&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai= https://encrypted.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&... Click "cached": http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:WHOsXsXzwjkJ:www.experts-exchange.com/Applications/MS_Office/Excel/Q_20805544.html+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:WHOsXsX... And then scroooooooooll again like before. There's the answers! They don't want to lose the Google juice, so they change the contents of the page so that Google sees it all, and regular people don't. You can also change your UA string to "Mozilla/5.0 (compatible; Googlebot/2.1; +http://www.google.com/bot.html http://www.google.com/bot.html) and it works...

amorphid 16y ago

Use of dark patterns is lazy and unsustainable.

gojomo 16y ago

I love the way Google Autocomplete serves as a window into the raw sentiments of the masses.