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Haven't read any of the news about how this currency is supposed to work, but if it lets anyone bypass the SWIFT system then the US should probably ban it too.

Haven't read any of the news about how this currency is supposed to work, but if it lets anyone bypass the SWIFT system then the US should probably ban it too. Being able to sanction anyone is a powerful tool to give up to Facebook of all companies.

tim333 7y ago
It bypasses SWIFT but only in the way bitcoin and similar cryptocurrencies do already.
- dmitrygr 7y ago
  statistically, so few people use bitcoin, that one might as well round to zero, so governments do not need to care. FB has 2.5B users whom they can easily manipulate, hence governments care.
  - xyzzyz 7y ago
    Yeah, but those who are sanctioned by governments have much more incentive to use Bitcoin, so the fact that most don't use it is not important, what is important is its existence as an option.
    - dmitrygr 7y ago
      It's not really an option. The hard (and VERY low) cap on transaction volume is a joke. If you think a Bitcoin is actually an option for actual banking for actual people (not just the current set of a few thousand gamblers), you are delusional. The current financial system DOES process more transactions in a millisecond than Bitcoin CAN in a week.
      - cossatot 7y ago
        No need to call anyone delusional.
      - xyzzyz 7y ago
        That's irrelevant. People who want to use Bitcoin to evade SWIFT sanctions don't need to do thousands transactions, they only need to do one.
  - cwkoss 7y ago
    I don't think governments 'dont care' but rather they are powerless to act effectively against Bitcoin. A ban would legitimize its utility to people skeptical of central banking. Because Satoshi is anonymous, there is no person or team to attack with legal or extralegal coercion. Only way to effectively take down bitcoin is to spend ~$1B building a huge mining operation with the purpose of launching a 51% attack, but even that could be mitigated.
    - root_axis 7y ago
      > A ban would legitimize its utility to people skeptical of central banking i.e. a tiny irrelevant niche. I don't think banning bitcoin is a good idea, but a ban would be highly effective because nobody cares enough to risk fines or jail time over something they have no use for anyway.
      - cwkoss 7y ago
        A government can ban BTC<>fiat exchanges within their country fairly effectively. A ban on transacting on the Bitcoin network would be extremely difficult to enforce - VPN to a different country and they've lost you. Cyberpunks could still cross borders to cash out, or just purchase digital goods/services.
        root_axis 7y ago
        > A ban on transacting on the Bitcoin network would be extremely difficult to enforce 1. I disagree. There are many effective methods a government could utilize to enforce a ban on transacting on the Bitcoin network. I could think of many technical examples, like the use of weaponized malware and 0-days to spy on the population and uncover users. Yes, some technical people could evade detection, but most people (including most programmers) would be caught up quickly due to opsec mistakes. There is also violence, which would be very effective unfortunately. 2. Even if they couldn't effectively ban transacting on the bitcoin network, the network itself is useless if the state makes it illegal for businesses to accept bitcoin. 3. Strong enforcement isn't necessary since the masses are already uninterested in blockchain tokens except as a vehicle for speculation. If the government made it illegal most people wouldn't think twice about it. Why bother?
  - m3kw9 7y ago
    It’s all about if fb can print money and able to compete with USD money supply
- johannes1234321 7y ago
  Facebook is subject to U.S. legislation. Chinese Bitcoin minors aren't. Facebook has many users. Each Bitcoin marketplace has only few.
chvid 7y ago
This is still a system on American control even if other currencies than USD are supported. One thing is that countries may be cut off from swift. That limits money transfer in and out of the country but the bank transfers within the country would still work. Blocking this could potentially halt the internal money transfers of a country.
- Despegar 7y ago
  So if a company or person is sanctioned, can Facebook or someone else freeze their Libra currency?
  - patrickaljord 7y ago
    Anyone can build their own wallet, Facebook will offer its own wallet (calibra) but you will not have to use it. tl;dr, they can't freeze your wallet if you're not using theirs. Paypal, visa and coinbase will offer their own and you can build your own.
    - zeven7 7y ago
      If the validators (Facebook, Visa, Paypal, etc) agree (re government regulations), your account can be frozen no matter whose wallet you're using.
    - modeless 7y ago
      > they can't freeze your wallet if you're not using theirs This is false. The wallet just reflects what's in the ledger, and the ledger is controlled by Facebook('s consortium). They can absolutely freeze any addresses they want. Furthermore, they control the currency peg and thus the value of the coin; they can make any address ineligible for redemption and thus worthless. And they certainly will, in the name of preventing fraud and crime and terrorism.
      - stcredzero 7y ago
        This is false. The wallet just reflects what's in the ledger, and the ledger is controlled by Facebook('s consortium). They can absolutely freeze any addresses they want. Isn't this a transfer of power over the movement of money away from the government, and to a corporate consortium? And they certainly will, in the name of preventing fraud and crime and terrorism. Which will result in the US government using those accusations more.
itsnotlupus 7y ago
I expect we'll find out that Libra's default set of trusted validators will be perfectly willing to accommodate local regulations. More than that though, AML/KYC and any other checks deemed necessary can occur at almost every point of contact with fiat currencies.
- akozak 7y ago
  Don't need to wait, they said so. https://libra.org/en-US/compliance-consumer-protection/#overview https://libra.org/en-US/compliance-consumer-protection/#over...

tim333 7y ago

It bypasses SWIFT but only in the way bitcoin and similar cryptocurrencies do already.

dmitrygr 7y ago
statistically, so few people use bitcoin, that one might as well round to zero, so governments do not need to care. FB has 2.5B users whom they can easily manipulate, hence governments care.
- xyzzyz 7y ago
  Yeah, but those who are sanctioned by governments have much more incentive to use Bitcoin, so the fact that most don't use it is not important, what is important is its existence as an option.
  - dmitrygr 7y ago
    It's not really an option. The hard (and VERY low) cap on transaction volume is a joke. If you think a Bitcoin is actually an option for actual banking for actual people (not just the current set of a few thousand gamblers), you are delusional. The current financial system DOES process more transactions in a millisecond than Bitcoin CAN in a week.
    - cossatot 7y ago
      No need to call anyone delusional.
    - xyzzyz 7y ago
      That's irrelevant. People who want to use Bitcoin to evade SWIFT sanctions don't need to do thousands transactions, they only need to do one.
- cwkoss 7y ago
  I don't think governments 'dont care' but rather they are powerless to act effectively against Bitcoin. A ban would legitimize its utility to people skeptical of central banking. Because Satoshi is anonymous, there is no person or team to attack with legal or extralegal coercion. Only way to effectively take down bitcoin is to spend ~$1B building a huge mining operation with the purpose of launching a 51% attack, but even that could be mitigated.
  - root_axis 7y ago
    > A ban would legitimize its utility to people skeptical of central banking i.e. a tiny irrelevant niche. I don't think banning bitcoin is a good idea, but a ban would be highly effective because nobody cares enough to risk fines or jail time over something they have no use for anyway.
    - cwkoss 7y ago
      A government can ban BTC<>fiat exchanges within their country fairly effectively. A ban on transacting on the Bitcoin network would be extremely difficult to enforce - VPN to a different country and they've lost you. Cyberpunks could still cross borders to cash out, or just purchase digital goods/services.
      - root_axis 7y ago
        > A ban on transacting on the Bitcoin network would be extremely difficult to enforce 1. I disagree. There are many effective methods a government could utilize to enforce a ban on transacting on the Bitcoin network. I could think of many technical examples, like the use of weaponized malware and 0-days to spy on the population and uncover users. Yes, some technical people could evade detection, but most people (including most programmers) would be caught up quickly due to opsec mistakes. There is also violence, which would be very effective unfortunately. 2. Even if they couldn't effectively ban transacting on the bitcoin network, the network itself is useless if the state makes it illegal for businesses to accept bitcoin. 3. Strong enforcement isn't necessary since the masses are already uninterested in blockchain tokens except as a vehicle for speculation. If the government made it illegal most people wouldn't think twice about it. Why bother?
- m3kw9 7y ago
  It’s all about if fb can print money and able to compete with USD money supply
johannes1234321 7y ago
Facebook is subject to U.S. legislation. Chinese Bitcoin minors aren't. Facebook has many users. Each Bitcoin marketplace has only few.

chvid 7y ago

This is still a system on American control even if other currencies than USD are supported. One thing is that countries may be cut off from swift. That limits money transfer in and out of the country but the bank transfers within the country would still work. Blocking this could potentially halt the internal money transfers of a country.

Despegar 7y ago
So if a company or person is sanctioned, can Facebook or someone else freeze their Libra currency?
- patrickaljord 7y ago
  Anyone can build their own wallet, Facebook will offer its own wallet (calibra) but you will not have to use it. tl;dr, they can't freeze your wallet if you're not using theirs. Paypal, visa and coinbase will offer their own and you can build your own.
  - zeven7 7y ago
    If the validators (Facebook, Visa, Paypal, etc) agree (re government regulations), your account can be frozen no matter whose wallet you're using.
  - modeless 7y ago
    > they can't freeze your wallet if you're not using theirs This is false. The wallet just reflects what's in the ledger, and the ledger is controlled by Facebook('s consortium). They can absolutely freeze any addresses they want. Furthermore, they control the currency peg and thus the value of the coin; they can make any address ineligible for redemption and thus worthless. And they certainly will, in the name of preventing fraud and crime and terrorism.
    - stcredzero 7y ago
      This is false. The wallet just reflects what's in the ledger, and the ledger is controlled by Facebook('s consortium). They can absolutely freeze any addresses they want. Isn't this a transfer of power over the movement of money away from the government, and to a corporate consortium? And they certainly will, in the name of preventing fraud and crime and terrorism. Which will result in the US government using those accusations more.

itsnotlupus 7y ago

I expect we'll find out that Libra's default set of trusted validators will be perfectly willing to accommodate local regulations. More than that though, AML/KYC and any other checks deemed necessary can occur at almost every point of contact with fiat currencies.

akozak 7y ago
Don't need to wait, they said so. https://libra.org/en-US/compliance-consumer-protection/#overview https://libra.org/en-US/compliance-consumer-protection/#over...