4 ms·

I have a 64-bit machine but I'm running 32-bit Debian because there's no good upgrade path, and I really don't want to reinstall because that would take a month

by ars 7y ago

I have a 64-bit machine but I'm running 32-bit Debian because there's no good upgrade path, and I really don't want to reinstall because that would take a months to get everything set up again. I'm running Debian not Ubuntu, but the absolute minimum they owe their users is an automatic upgrade path.

Wowfunhappy 7y ago
I don't forsee Debian dropping 32-bit in the immediate future.
urda 7y ago
> but the absolute minimum they owe their users is an automatic upgrade path. How exactly do you purpose they perform an "automatic upgrade" on their user's hardware? You don't just patch or upgrade to go from 32 bit to 64 bit. You can't hotfix hardware like that.
- rvp-x 7y ago
  When there's a will there's a way. Personally I would go for unpacking the 64bit userland+packages in a subdirectory, boot once into a rescue userland which just switches the directories around, then boot normally. GRUB already has support for "boot once in this alternate configuration", so it's all there.
- ars 7y ago
  As I said, I'm running 64 bit hardware, and a 64 bit kernel. But shifting the packages from 32 bit to 64 bit is not supported automatically. And that despite the ability to install both 32 and 64 bit packages side by side. It's like they did all the hard part for the upgrade, and just didn't finish that last little bit (find 64 bit versions of existing 32 bit packages, and install them, then remove the 32 bit).
Filligree 7y ago
You sound like someone who'd enjoy running NixOS. It would still require setting everything up again, but at least once you've done that once you can put the settings in a git repository and be done with it forevermore. Reinstalling is a trivial operation.
JoshTriplett 7y ago
It's a lot of work, but it is possible to "side-grade" to 64-bit. In dpkg, add the amd64 architecture. Install and boot a 64-bit kernel. Then carefully replace 32-bit packages with 64-bit packages. You'll hit a few bumps along the way, but it's possible to do without reinstalling from scratch. That said, it'd likely be easier to install 64-bit, diff and copy across configuration files, and port over your installed package list (dpkg --get-selections) with a bit of care for packages whose names differ between 32-bit and 64-bit. I've done something similar when setting up new systems, and it's about a half-day's work, not a month.
- zeotroph 7y ago
  I actually did this with a debian sid a few years back. I guess I got attached to that trusty system which I moved from PC to PC for years and had a few too many customization. With my latest PC I went with a clean install though.
realthing 7y ago
It’s FOSS - they owe you nothing
viraptor 7y ago
Unless you've got some Frankenstein system with lots of random binaries dropped in by hand, it shouldn't take months. 1. dpkg --get-selections 2. Backup global data (databases and such) 3. Backup global config (/etc, /use/local/etc) 4. Backup home directories 5. Reinstall and apply all to the new system. This is a weekend job at most if it ends up being complicated.
- ars 7y ago
  I don't have a new system, I would need to do it in place, on the same system. I guess I should have clarified that I already have a 64 bit CPU, and 64 bit kernel, but my initial installation is 20 or more years old and has been updated since then, from that same initial installation. (It's even the same initial ext3 filesystem, since I used md raid to shift the installation to new hard disks over time, it used to be ext2, but that upgrade was automatic.) Debian has the ability to have both 32 and 64 bit packages installed side-by-side. I.e. they did the hard part. I just need some way to automatically shift each package to its 64 bit equivalent, then remove the 32 bit one, and eventually the libraries too once nothing depends on them.
  - diffeomorphism 7y ago
    There are instructions for crossgrading on the wiki: https://wiki.debian.org/CrossGrading https://wiki.debian.org/CrossGrading as well as several articles linked and scripts available.
acdha 7y ago
> I'm running Debian not Ubuntu, but the absolute minimum they owe their users is an automatic upgrade path. Do you have a support contract? If not, ask yourself about the complexity of what you feel entitled to — especially given that a system which will “take a month to get everything set up again” is far from a clean upgrade — and ask how much effort you've contributed to the project helping make that feature exist.
- ars 7y ago
  I've been running, and recommending, Debian for over 20 years. I've contributed to it via bug reports and patches as much as I was able to. I even used to have a [minor] package I maintained there (it's gone now). The feature almost exists, Debian can run both 32 and 64 bit versions of a package side-by-side.
  - ahje 7y ago
    This announcement doesn't really concern Debian though. Debian still runs on rather ancient stuff like m68k, and I find it unlikely that they will drop i386 anytime soon.

by ars 7y ago

Wowfunhappy 7y ago

I don't forsee Debian dropping 32-bit in the immediate future.

urda 7y ago

> but the absolute minimum they owe their users is an automatic upgrade path. How exactly do you purpose they perform an "automatic upgrade" on their user's hardware? You don't just patch or upgrade to go from 32 bit to 64 bit. You can't hotfix hardware like that.

rvp-x 7y ago
When there's a will there's a way. Personally I would go for unpacking the 64bit userland+packages in a subdirectory, boot once into a rescue userland which just switches the directories around, then boot normally. GRUB already has support for "boot once in this alternate configuration", so it's all there.
ars 7y ago
As I said, I'm running 64 bit hardware, and a 64 bit kernel. But shifting the packages from 32 bit to 64 bit is not supported automatically. And that despite the ability to install both 32 and 64 bit packages side by side. It's like they did all the hard part for the upgrade, and just didn't finish that last little bit (find 64 bit versions of existing 32 bit packages, and install them, then remove the 32 bit).

Filligree 7y ago

You sound like someone who'd enjoy running NixOS. It would still require setting everything up again, but at least once you've done that once you can put the settings in a git repository and be done with it forevermore. Reinstalling is a trivial operation.

JoshTriplett 7y ago

It's a lot of work, but it is possible to "side-grade" to 64-bit. In dpkg, add the amd64 architecture. Install and boot a 64-bit kernel. Then carefully replace 32-bit packages with 64-bit packages. You'll hit a few bumps along the way, but it's possible to do without reinstalling from scratch. That said, it'd likely be easier to install 64-bit, diff and copy across configuration files, and port over your installed package list (dpkg --get-selections) with a bit of care for packages whose names differ between 32-bit and 64-bit. I've done something similar when setting up new systems, and it's about a half-day's work, not a month.

zeotroph 7y ago
I actually did this with a debian sid a few years back. I guess I got attached to that trusty system which I moved from PC to PC for years and had a few too many customization. With my latest PC I went with a clean install though.

realthing 7y ago

It’s FOSS - they owe you nothing

viraptor 7y ago

Unless you've got some Frankenstein system with lots of random binaries dropped in by hand, it shouldn't take months. 1. dpkg --get-selections 2. Backup global data (databases and such) 3. Backup global config (/etc, /use/local/etc) 4. Backup home directories 5. Reinstall and apply all to the new system. This is a weekend job at most if it ends up being complicated.

ars 7y ago
I don't have a new system, I would need to do it in place, on the same system. I guess I should have clarified that I already have a 64 bit CPU, and 64 bit kernel, but my initial installation is 20 or more years old and has been updated since then, from that same initial installation. (It's even the same initial ext3 filesystem, since I used md raid to shift the installation to new hard disks over time, it used to be ext2, but that upgrade was automatic.) Debian has the ability to have both 32 and 64 bit packages installed side-by-side. I.e. they did the hard part. I just need some way to automatically shift each package to its 64 bit equivalent, then remove the 32 bit one, and eventually the libraries too once nothing depends on them.
- diffeomorphism 7y ago
  There are instructions for crossgrading on the wiki: https://wiki.debian.org/CrossGrading https://wiki.debian.org/CrossGrading as well as several articles linked and scripts available.

acdha 7y ago

> I'm running Debian not Ubuntu, but the absolute minimum they owe their users is an automatic upgrade path. Do you have a support contract? If not, ask yourself about the complexity of what you feel entitled to — especially given that a system which will “take a month to get everything set up again” is far from a clean upgrade — and ask how much effort you've contributed to the project helping make that feature exist.

ars 7y ago
I've been running, and recommending, Debian for over 20 years. I've contributed to it via bug reports and patches as much as I was able to. I even used to have a [minor] package I maintained there (it's gone now). The feature almost exists, Debian can run both 32 and 64 bit versions of a package side-by-side.
- ahje 7y ago
  This announcement doesn't really concern Debian though. Debian still runs on rather ancient stuff like m68k, and I find it unlikely that they will drop i386 anytime soon.