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You will need to construct a more targeted argument than, “All cryptocurrency is a scam” if you want others to construct more targeted arguments than “all banks

You will need to construct a more targeted argument than, “All cryptocurrency is a scam” if you want others to construct more targeted arguments than “all banks bad” (the difference being you had to paraphrase GP, while I got to directly quote you). Cryptocurrency is infrastructure, while you are arguing against it as a replacement for all players in the current financial system. I would argue that's a shortsighted and under-informed perspective.

toomuchtodo 7y ago
https://www.wired.com/story/theres-no-good-reason-to-trust-blockchain-technology/ https://www.wired.com/story/theres-no-good-reason-to-trust-b... (Bruce Schneier: There Is No Good Reason To Trust Blockchain Technology) https://www.dailycal.org/2018/03/09/father-internet-vint-cerf-speaks-bitcoin/ https://www.dailycal.org/2018/03/09/father-internet-vint-cer... (Vint Cerf: "In addition to discussing the history and advancement of internet technology, Cerf talked about cryptocurrency. When asked about bitcoin, Cerf said his first response was to “run the other way.” On the topic of blockchain, he struck a more moderate tone but cautioned about its applications.") https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/25/bank-of-america-skeptical-on-blockchain-despite-having-most-patents.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/25/bank-of-america-skeptical-on... (Bank of America tech chief is skeptical on blockchain even though BofA has the most patents for it) https://www.fnlondon.com/articles/breaking-the-blockchain-major-projects-shelved-as-hype-fades-20180911 https://www.fnlondon.com/articles/breaking-the-blockchain-ma... (Breaking the blockchain: Major projects shelved as hype fades) https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-05-29/blockchain-settlement-was-slow-costly-in-trial-weidmann-says https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-05-29/blockchai... (Bundesbank: Blockchain Settlement Was Slow, Costly in Trial, Weidmann Says: “The blockchain solutions did not fare better in every way: the process took a bit longer and resulted in relatively high computational costs,” Weidmann said in Frankfurt on Wednesday. “Similar experiences have been made elsewhere in the financial sector. Despite numerous tests of blockchain-based prototypes, a real breakthrough in application is missing so far.”) Distributed ledgers, blockchain, and cryptocurrency are solutions looking for a problem, overly complicated and underperformant infrastructure. They attempt to solve for trust with technology solutions in a world governed by human regulation and legal frameworks (which always take precedence). A database will work just fine. Everything else is snake oil.
- trophycase 7y ago
  So a bank who wants to patent blockchain for themselves and a bunch of people who don't get it. Not very convincing.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - toomuchtodo 7y ago
    If you're not convinced based on evidence there is no practical, production use distributed ledger or cryptocurrency besides bitcoin (which works very, very poorly), that's not on me to address. Prove it works and is needed.
- shadowfiend 7y ago
  I mean… I could also post articles on Fidelity and Ernst & Young investing in the technology, Stripe, Square, obviously Facebook and a whole host of other companies in this announcement, etc, but it feels very much like you've decided your conclusion and are simply feeding it with whatever journalism confirms it. Regardless, you asked for a more targeted argument, I asked you for the same, and your response was 5 different articles on 5 different things. That's not targeted, it's the literal opposite. The problem with not being targeted is you have to pick a thing that you're disagreeing with. Here you seem to be disagreeing with “people think blockchain is useful”. But… There's plenty of evidence that isn't true in the general case, even if specific groups certainly don't think it's useful. Alternatively, we'll take your opening statement of “All cryptocurrency is a scam”---which is both not targeted (‘all’ is the operative word there) and not really supported by your articles since they're all about specific people or specific attempts. It's fine to be a skeptic, by the way! I take no issue with you not particularly believing in the hype; my own take on the hype is considerably more skeptical than the louder folks. Just… Maybe don't put down other people's arguments unless you're willing to put in the time to make a better one? To your other points: (a) you can have a mostly-technological solution in a world whose final resolution mechanism is human and legal; (b) there are plenty of companies in the cryptocurrency space still operating with SEC approval, including teams that did ICOs; (c) cryptocurrency, even the completely public/trustless type, isn't mutually incompatible with banks as a concept, though it could eliminate certain aspects of banks that require direct human intervention in the long term. None of these things are here yet. Technology takes time, and the difficulty with technology that's built in the open is that it's in the public eye long before it's fully ready for prime time, so the debates about it happen in the public eye. A classic example is the Tanenbaum-Torvalds debate[1], except cryptocurrencies are being developed in a world that is 1000 times more connected than the Linux kernel was, and they are ostensibly applicable to considerably more people. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanenbaum–Torvalds_debate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanenbaum–Torvalds_debate

toomuchtodo 7y ago

https://www.wired.com/story/theres-no-good-reason-to-trust-blockchain-technology/ https://www.wired.com/story/theres-no-good-reason-to-trust-b... (Bruce Schneier: There Is No Good Reason To Trust Blockchain Technology) https://www.dailycal.org/2018/03/09/father-internet-vint-cerf-speaks-bitcoin/ https://www.dailycal.org/2018/03/09/father-internet-vint-cer... (Vint Cerf: "In addition to discussing the history and advancement of internet technology, Cerf talked about cryptocurrency. When asked about bitcoin, Cerf said his first response was to “run the other way.” On the topic of blockchain, he struck a more moderate tone but cautioned about its applications.") https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/25/bank-of-america-skeptical-on-blockchain-despite-having-most-patents.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/25/bank-of-america-skeptical-on... (Bank of America tech chief is skeptical on blockchain even though BofA has the most patents for it) https://www.fnlondon.com/articles/breaking-the-blockchain-major-projects-shelved-as-hype-fades-20180911 https://www.fnlondon.com/articles/breaking-the-blockchain-ma... (Breaking the blockchain: Major projects shelved as hype fades) https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-05-29/blockchain-settlement-was-slow-costly-in-trial-weidmann-says https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-05-29/blockchai... (Bundesbank: Blockchain Settlement Was Slow, Costly in Trial, Weidmann Says: “The blockchain solutions did not fare better in every way: the process took a bit longer and resulted in relatively high computational costs,” Weidmann said in Frankfurt on Wednesday. “Similar experiences have been made elsewhere in the financial sector. Despite numerous tests of blockchain-based prototypes, a real breakthrough in application is missing so far.”) Distributed ledgers, blockchain, and cryptocurrency are solutions looking for a problem, overly complicated and underperformant infrastructure. They attempt to solve for trust with technology solutions in a world governed by human regulation and legal frameworks (which always take precedence). A database will work just fine. Everything else is snake oil.

trophycase 7y ago
So a bank who wants to patent blockchain for themselves and a bunch of people who don't get it. Not very convincing.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- toomuchtodo 7y ago
  If you're not convinced based on evidence there is no practical, production use distributed ledger or cryptocurrency besides bitcoin (which works very, very poorly), that's not on me to address. Prove it works and is needed.
shadowfiend 7y ago
I mean… I could also post articles on Fidelity and Ernst & Young investing in the technology, Stripe, Square, obviously Facebook and a whole host of other companies in this announcement, etc, but it feels very much like you've decided your conclusion and are simply feeding it with whatever journalism confirms it. Regardless, you asked for a more targeted argument, I asked you for the same, and your response was 5 different articles on 5 different things. That's not targeted, it's the literal opposite. The problem with not being targeted is you have to pick a thing that you're disagreeing with. Here you seem to be disagreeing with “people think blockchain is useful”. But… There's plenty of evidence that isn't true in the general case, even if specific groups certainly don't think it's useful. Alternatively, we'll take your opening statement of “All cryptocurrency is a scam”---which is both not targeted (‘all’ is the operative word there) and not really supported by your articles since they're all about specific people or specific attempts. It's fine to be a skeptic, by the way! I take no issue with you not particularly believing in the hype; my own take on the hype is considerably more skeptical than the louder folks. Just… Maybe don't put down other people's arguments unless you're willing to put in the time to make a better one? To your other points: (a) you can have a mostly-technological solution in a world whose final resolution mechanism is human and legal; (b) there are plenty of companies in the cryptocurrency space still operating with SEC approval, including teams that did ICOs; (c) cryptocurrency, even the completely public/trustless type, isn't mutually incompatible with banks as a concept, though it could eliminate certain aspects of banks that require direct human intervention in the long term. None of these things are here yet. Technology takes time, and the difficulty with technology that's built in the open is that it's in the public eye long before it's fully ready for prime time, so the debates about it happen in the public eye. A classic example is the Tanenbaum-Torvalds debate[1], except cryptocurrencies are being developed in a world that is 1000 times more connected than the Linux kernel was, and they are ostensibly applicable to considerably more people. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanenbaum–Torvalds_debate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanenbaum–Torvalds_debate