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>Libra’s mission is to enable a simple global currency and financial infrastructure [...] This document outlines our plans for a new decentralized blockchain,

by jasode 7y ago

>Libra’s mission is to enable a simple global currency and financial infrastructure [...] This document outlines our plans for a new decentralized blockchain, The "decentralized" can be parsed different ways. Facebook Libra is decentralizing the transactions but it does not decentralize the currency creation. (This partial decentralization happens because Facebook wants to peg Libra to stable asset reserves.) This is different from Bitcoin's idea of decentralizing both the currency creation _and_ the financial transactions. We can see this distinction in its list of partners... > Members of the Libra Association will consist of [...] The bulleted list includes: - transaction processors such as Mastercard/Visa, PayPal, Stripe, etc - ecommerce marketplaces such as ebay, Uber, etc - telecomm such as Vodafone We see the industry that's noticeably missing: no banks mentioned such as JP Morgan Chase, Citi, HSBC, etc That's because Facebook wants to be the "bank" in this new Libra economy. It wants to be the "Federal Reserve" that creates bank notes. If I misunderstand Facebook's intentions and how it wants to position Libra in the financial world, please correct me.

m1el 7y ago
I would also like to add that FB is going to tie wallets to accounts so FB will know information about every transation. "Pseudonymous" wallets aren't going to be anonymous to Facebook.
- dchest 7y ago
  Their "customer commitment" document claims otherwise https://scontent-frt3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.2365-6/65083631_355528488499253_8415273665234468864_n.pdf?_nc_cat=106&_nc_ht=scontent-frt3-2.xx&oh=6a0b1e2dcf71404fd66d5c0a733de73f&oe=5D982AC3 https://scontent-frt3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.2365-6/65083631_3...
  - Phemist 7y ago
    I think the devil is in the details. The claim `Calibra will not share account information or financial data with Facebook, Inc. or any third party` is followed by `without customer consent.`. From reading through the document you linked, the infrastructure will definitely be there to support the sharing of any and all data. Considering Facebook's history with getting "consent", I am willing to bet that they will take every chance they can get to manipulate users into giving such "consent".
    - t0m4 7y ago
      "We will implement cold wallets and multisig wallets that allow Libra users and association members to add extra security for their Libra coin and Libra Investment Token holdings."
      - ranit 7y ago
        security != privacy
    - gabaix 7y ago
      “When Facebook notified the acquisition of WhatsApp in 2014, it informed the Commission that it would be unable to establish reliable automated matching between Facebook users' accounts and WhatsApp users' accounts. It stated this both in the notification form and in a reply to a request of information from the Commission. However, in August 2016, WhatsApp announced updates to its terms of service and privacy policy, including the possibility of linking WhatsApp users' phone numbers with Facebook users' identities.” European Commission, 2017
      - Phemist 7y ago
        Yep, except this time the infrastructure will be in place from the start.
      - znpy 7y ago
        FecK, I missed that. Source ? I guess it's time to drop Whatsapp definitively.
  - m1el 7y ago
    Based on historical precedents, I will not believe any "customer commitment" / "privacy commitment" statements from Facebook.
    - apexalpha 7y ago
      Not believing Facebook is a lot different from stating as a fact that the FBI will be able to tie every wallet generated to a FB account.
      - m1el 7y ago
        I didn't say anything about FBI. FB = Facebook
        apexalpha 7y ago
        I swear to god I read FBI? Did you edit it? IF not apology from my side.
  - alangibson 7y ago
    That isn't worth the bits it's written on. They are free to change their TOS any time they want.
- t0m4 7y ago
  https://dud.inf.tu-dresden.de/literatur/Anon_Terminology_v0.12.pdf https://dud.inf.tu-dresden.de/literatur/Anon_Terminology_v0....
sAbakumoff 7y ago
dude, that sounds pretty intimidating. Does MZ want to take the absolute control over the world.
CodiePetersen 7y ago
Sounds about as decentralised as my private collection of cloud servers I get to make all the decisions on. Decentralised is supposed to mean individuals are both the caretakers and the users.
- kodz4 7y ago
  There are lots of decentralized processes unfolding in your body that you have no control over.
throwawaylolx 7y ago
>We see the industry that's noticeably missing: no banks mentioned such as JP Morgan Chase, Citi, HSBC, etc As far as I know, they're missing because they refused to be part of the association: >Originally the company had ambitions to get Wall Street involved, but found a lack of interest among institutional giants like Goldman Sachs and JPMorgan. It is still looking to have 100 members in the governing association, the person said. https://www.theblockcrypto.com/2019/06/14/facebooks-cryptocurrency-partners-revealed-we-obtained-the-entire-list-of-inaugural-backers/ https://www.theblockcrypto.com/2019/06/14/facebooks-cryptocu...
JumpCrisscross 7y ago
> This is different from Bitcoin's idea of decentralizing Libra is Facebook Credits [1] rebooted. All that changed is the meme it’s attaching to, “cryptocurrency” being better at suspending consumers’ scepticism. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facebook_Credits https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facebook_Credits
- jasode 7y ago
  >Libra is Facebook Credits [1] rebooted. All that changed is the meme it’s attaching to, “cryptocurrency” My posting history will show I'm skeptical of Facebook but setting my biases aside, I think there's still a real technical difference here. I believe the old Facebook Credits required the transactions to go through Facebook's centralized servers. (The programming api for processing Facebook Credits communicated with Facebook's servers.) This would be similar to a customer holding Marriott Hotel points and she wants to give them to a friend; she would have to call up Marriott customer service and have them transfer the credits/points from her account to someone else's. The transactions can't happen without Facebook and Marriott getting involved. That's fundamentally different from Libra since its transactions are validated by external partner nodes. Therefore, the Libra isn't a cryptocurrency in just a "meme" bandwagon sense; it's actually designed for decentralized transactions that don't require centralized Facebook servers. Whether the public (and merchants accepting payments) finds that technical difference of any value and massively adopts it, I don't know.
  - JumpCrisscross 7y ago
    > different from Libra since its transactions are validated by external partner nodes “Facebook is expected to maintain a leadership role [in the Association] through 2019.” The Association (“an independent, not-for-profit membership organization, headquartered in Geneva, Switzerland”) holds title to the reserves, has a monopoly on coin minting and destruction, and has sole determination over new Association members (who each get one vote). It’s Facebook Credits with co-branding.
    - ChainOfFools 7y ago
Balgair 7y ago
Zawinski's Law: “Every program attempts to expand until it can read mail. Those programs which cannot so expand are replaced by ones which can.” If you'll allow me to riff on jwz, I think another law is applicable to social media: "Every social media company will expand until it becomes a bank. Those social media companies which cannot so expand are replaced by the ones which will. A bank is meant in the sense that it will store and mantain things of value including favors, records, and money."

by jasode 7y ago

m1el 7y ago

I would also like to add that FB is going to tie wallets to accounts so FB will know information about every transation. "Pseudonymous" wallets aren't going to be anonymous to Facebook.

dchest 7y ago
Their "customer commitment" document claims otherwise https://scontent-frt3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.2365-6/65083631_355528488499253_8415273665234468864_n.pdf?_nc_cat=106&_nc_ht=scontent-frt3-2.xx&oh=6a0b1e2dcf71404fd66d5c0a733de73f&oe=5D982AC3 https://scontent-frt3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.2365-6/65083631_3...
- Phemist 7y ago
  I think the devil is in the details. The claim `Calibra will not share account information or financial data with Facebook, Inc. or any third party` is followed by `without customer consent.`. From reading through the document you linked, the infrastructure will definitely be there to support the sharing of any and all data. Considering Facebook's history with getting "consent", I am willing to bet that they will take every chance they can get to manipulate users into giving such "consent".
  - t0m4 7y ago
    "We will implement cold wallets and multisig wallets that allow Libra users and association members to add extra security for their Libra coin and Libra Investment Token holdings."
    - ranit 7y ago
      security != privacy
  - gabaix 7y ago
    “When Facebook notified the acquisition of WhatsApp in 2014, it informed the Commission that it would be unable to establish reliable automated matching between Facebook users' accounts and WhatsApp users' accounts. It stated this both in the notification form and in a reply to a request of information from the Commission. However, in August 2016, WhatsApp announced updates to its terms of service and privacy policy, including the possibility of linking WhatsApp users' phone numbers with Facebook users' identities.” European Commission, 2017
    - Phemist 7y ago
      Yep, except this time the infrastructure will be in place from the start.
    - znpy 7y ago
      FecK, I missed that. Source ? I guess it's time to drop Whatsapp definitively.
- m1el 7y ago
  Based on historical precedents, I will not believe any "customer commitment" / "privacy commitment" statements from Facebook.
  - apexalpha 7y ago
    Not believing Facebook is a lot different from stating as a fact that the FBI will be able to tie every wallet generated to a FB account.
    - m1el 7y ago
      I didn't say anything about FBI. FB = Facebook
      - apexalpha 7y ago
        I swear to god I read FBI? Did you edit it? IF not apology from my side.
- alangibson 7y ago
  That isn't worth the bits it's written on. They are free to change their TOS any time they want.
t0m4 7y ago
https://dud.inf.tu-dresden.de/literatur/Anon_Terminology_v0.12.pdf https://dud.inf.tu-dresden.de/literatur/Anon_Terminology_v0....

sAbakumoff 7y ago

dude, that sounds pretty intimidating. Does MZ want to take the absolute control over the world.

CodiePetersen 7y ago

Sounds about as decentralised as my private collection of cloud servers I get to make all the decisions on. Decentralised is supposed to mean individuals are both the caretakers and the users.

kodz4 7y ago
There are lots of decentralized processes unfolding in your body that you have no control over.

throwawaylolx 7y ago

>We see the industry that's noticeably missing: no banks mentioned such as JP Morgan Chase, Citi, HSBC, etc As far as I know, they're missing because they refused to be part of the association: >Originally the company had ambitions to get Wall Street involved, but found a lack of interest among institutional giants like Goldman Sachs and JPMorgan. It is still looking to have 100 members in the governing association, the person said. https://www.theblockcrypto.com/2019/06/14/facebooks-cryptocurrency-partners-revealed-we-obtained-the-entire-list-of-inaugural-backers/ https://www.theblockcrypto.com/2019/06/14/facebooks-cryptocu...

JumpCrisscross 7y ago

> This is different from Bitcoin's idea of decentralizing Libra is Facebook Credits [1] rebooted. All that changed is the meme it’s attaching to, “cryptocurrency” being better at suspending consumers’ scepticism. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facebook_Credits https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facebook_Credits

jasode 7y ago
>Libra is Facebook Credits [1] rebooted. All that changed is the meme it’s attaching to, “cryptocurrency” My posting history will show I'm skeptical of Facebook but setting my biases aside, I think there's still a real technical difference here. I believe the old Facebook Credits required the transactions to go through Facebook's centralized servers. (The programming api for processing Facebook Credits communicated with Facebook's servers.) This would be similar to a customer holding Marriott Hotel points and she wants to give them to a friend; she would have to call up Marriott customer service and have them transfer the credits/points from her account to someone else's. The transactions can't happen without Facebook and Marriott getting involved. That's fundamentally different from Libra since its transactions are validated by external partner nodes. Therefore, the Libra isn't a cryptocurrency in just a "meme" bandwagon sense; it's actually designed for decentralized transactions that don't require centralized Facebook servers. Whether the public (and merchants accepting payments) finds that technical difference of any value and massively adopts it, I don't know.
- JumpCrisscross 7y ago
  > different from Libra since its transactions are validated by external partner nodes “Facebook is expected to maintain a leadership role [in the Association] through 2019.” The Association (“an independent, not-for-profit membership organization, headquartered in Geneva, Switzerland”) holds title to the reserves, has a monopoly on coin minting and destruction, and has sole determination over new Association members (who each get one vote). It’s Facebook Credits with co-branding.
  - ChainOfFools 7y ago

Balgair 7y ago

Zawinski's Law: “Every program attempts to expand until it can read mail. Those programs which cannot so expand are replaced by ones which can.” If you'll allow me to riff on jwz, I think another law is applicable to social media: "Every social media company will expand until it becomes a bank. Those social media companies which cannot so expand are replaced by the ones which will. A bank is meant in the sense that it will store and mantain things of value including favors, records, and money."