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While I absolutely agree with the goal of reducing our species carbon production and associated impact on the environment, I have a more personal and selfish co

While I absolutely agree with the goal of reducing our species carbon production and associated impact on the environment, I have a more personal and selfish concern with these proposals. The only way I’m able to have a reasonably nice car with good handling and entertaining performance is by buying a used car from probably 10-15 years ago. The sorts of cars that have nice leather seats, a sunroof, maybe a v6 or smaller v8, think the 2004 Subaru Legacy. Given the rate of failure and failure modes inherent in current battery technology in things like Teslas and such this market simply wont exist leaving me with a choice between keeping a petrol powered nice car going with whatever tax and fuel increases are decided, or buying the absolute cheapest electric car available with whatever comforts, safety features and plain enjoyment I lose in the process just being part of the deal. I’m sort of disappointed that my personal hobby is going to disappear soon and what’s left for people like me will be the Hyundai i10 of electric cars forever more. I’d still prefer that to not having a planet to live on though...

dev_north_east 7y ago
PCPs for everyone! (joke, but seriously I think this is what they expect/want)
hannob 7y ago
> While I absolutely agree with the goal of reducing our species carbon production and associated impact on the environment, I have a more personal and selfish concern with these proposals. Congratulations for summarizing one of the main challenges of climate policy. Everyone's for it, except if it affects them personally.
- close04 7y ago
  This is a real dilemma because it's not always about choice in any reasonable interpretation. Some people may need a car for their livelihood but simply cannot afford anything better than a polluting clunker. Sometimes it is about choices made unwittingly. Imagine people who buy an EV because they think it's the best way to do their part even if 99.999% of their usage fits perfectly for bicycle and public transport (increased efficiency + added benefits not strictly related to global warming). In the end everyone will draw the line sooner or later. The point is to drop the bar and making it easier for most to take action. But people who expect everyone to be able to do it (usually based on the "I did it so if you don't you're just selfish" thinking) aren't very reasonable.
  - lm28469 7y ago
    > Some people may need a car for their livelihood but simply cannot afford anything better than a polluting clunker. I think we can agree that no one _needs_ a sport car for their 'livelihood'. There are plenty of affordable new cars, they might be small and slow but at least they're safe and meet the current solution standard. And yeah people need trucks to tow or move things around, but that's something other than "entertainment".
    - close04 7y ago
      > I think we can agree that no one _needs_ a sport car for their 'livelihood' That's why I considered the "old clunker" case. But even the sports car part is debatable somehow. Look around you now. How many of the things in your line of sight are actually needs, and how many are wants? How many things have changed inside each layer of Maslow's hierarchy of needs over the past half a century or more? Do you need HN? Imagine if someone told you it's going down because you can save xxx KWh. :) I agree that a sports car may be a step too far even for this line of thinking but the point stands.
    - eertami 7y ago
      >There are plenty of affordable new cars, they might be small and slow Define affordable, because I'm never going to spend more than €2000 on a car so at the moment drive a small-ish but slow 1.6L petrol car from 2004. At least it was the smallest I could get away with while having to fit 190cm skis in the car everyday. I can't wait to go electric, but I think I'm 10 years away from being there myself. Also moving between rented accommodation in rural areas often with only street parking makes the whole "charging at home" thing quite a pain. I'm hoping by then things are better, but in the countryside I still think electric cars are going to be a tricky thing to migrate to.
NeedMoreTea 7y ago
A simple fix. 50% yearly increases in petrol tax. :)
- DocTomoe 7y ago
  How to kill your economy 101.
SuoDuanDao 7y ago
Doesn't this ban just apply to new cars? I would think the used car market would keep going mostly as it always has...
- icebraining 7y ago
  They also said they'll stop renewing the NCT (annual license required for cars older than 10y) after 2045.
sammorrowdrums 7y ago
I think this is the thing - it will take some lifestyle and leisure changes to make that happen, and individual freedom is simply not as important as fixing this - given that not fixing this is equivalent to losing all individual freedom via horrific means. Where I live cars are already somewhat unwelcome - and everyone bicycles or takes trams, metro, buses and trains. They are removing parking spaces by the thousands. Cities are gradually ceasing to be built around cars. The notion of high car ownership in the future seems questionable at this point full stop.
- PebblesHD 7y ago
  Spot on, especially in cities where you really only use a car on weekends or other ‘special’ occasions. If I could rent a nice electric car for Saturday and Sunday for a reasonable price, that would largely offset any potential lifestyle changes that such a law would introduce, as well as encouraging more people to reconsider personal transport during the week if possible.
  - jodrellblank 7y ago
    If there were enough electric cars for everyone who wants one to rent one on Saturday and Sunday at a reasonable price, they may as well be used as personal transport during the week instead of left idling during the week, right?
- sgt 7y ago
  I do 4x4-ing so a relatively big engine is often a must, unless you compromise in other ways. Since I don't really want to lug around a beast on mud terrain tires all day, I have a few other vehicles that I drive to offset the environmental impact, and also the fuel bill. My daily transport is a BMW 530d which is very efficient on diesel, although I wish it were gasoline to be honest.
- cinnamon_bun 7y ago
  I envy you. It's the other way around in the third-world country where I happen to live. As the people climb out of poverty they deem it necessary to buy bigger and bigger cars. I think easily half of transport on the roads are giant SUVs, which are built like tanks and take 1.5 lanes. Each car takes ten times then space of one fat-ass behind the wheel. Also, I personally know a guy who makes a decent living from knowing (and applying) how to circumvent pollution controls on many car models. He has a large wait list from locals who want to up their fuel consumption by 20-30% to be able to make that 100 km/h one second faster. Absolutely nobody I ever talked to gives one flying fuck about environment pollution. They don't even care if it affects them personally (and it does, judging from the constant cough you hear from everybody all day long, and my sore throat, which has been sore every day for the last I don't know how many years).
bgarbiak 7y ago
I am pretty sure that ICE cars will survive as a hobby, that is: on the dedicated racetracks. On one hand it might get prohibitively expensive (track days are, already), on the other: since it will be the only way to enjoy driving a V8, etc. – it might get way more popular, and cheaper in the process.
kameltoz 7y ago
Do you really think the hobby of the automobile is going to disappear with EVs? Most top-end sports cars have either implementated a hybrid system or have gone full electric (think Formula E). Car manufacturers will follow at the consumer level and the Subaru fandom with them[1]. Obviously the petrolhead generation will have to adapt to the new cars but you shouldn't worry about a sunroof and leather seats. Right now the biggest barrier to entry is the capital cost of buying a new EV but 10-15 years down the line the second-hand market price shouldn't be much different than it is right now. [1]https://www.google.com/amp/s/electrek.co/2019/06/06/toyota-subaru-partner-electric-sus/amp/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/electrek.co/2019/06/06/toyota-s...
- CapricornNoble 7y ago
  Sure, some EVs are fast, but they don't deliver the same experience EMOTIONALLY, which is a very big part of what makes auto enthusiasts so attached to their hobby. And I'd argue most of that is the aural experience of roaring internal-combustion engine. It's why I prefer Inline-6 engines over most other configurations: they SOUND better. I have a fairly small-displacement (250cc) motorcycle with carburetors, objectively slower and less performant than some of the sports cars I've owned or ridden in, and yet it delivers a totally unique and stimulating experience. As a neophyte rider it still makes my spine tingle to go >100kph on this thing, while I don't bat an eye at bouncing off the electronically-limited top speed (~185kph) in my Evo. It wasn't until I experienced a motorcycle that I came to look at driving as just a little bit.....bland. And from a spectator perspective, not many people wanna watch EVs humming almost silently around a track. I think most gearheads will feel similarly: even if they are fast they are underwhelming as an emotive experience.
lm28469 7y ago
> The only way I’m able to have a reasonably nice car with good handling and entertaining performance > I’m sort of disappointed that my personal hobby is going to disappear Imagine if everyone was as entitled as that. The period of "we burn coal and gas for fun and entertainment" is over and we have to get over it. "Save the planet !" screams the dying ape, "as long as I don't have to personally do something".
- jodrellblank 7y ago
  A cruise ship emits as much pollution as 1,000,000 cars per day[1]. Name calling people while turning a blind eye that most pollution is shipping, air traffic and heavy manufacturing which profits by not having to pay for its own externalities, is totally mean-spirited and unhelpful. Would you have a problem if driving a sports car for fun included a mandatory carbon-sink tax that covered the car's pollution - if it became more expensive to make, buy, and run a car, but still permitted? [1]https://www.euractiv.com/section/air-pollution/news/daily-emissions-of-cruise-ships-same-as-one-million-cars/ https://www.euractiv.com/section/air-pollution/news/daily-em...
  - lm28469 7y ago
    > Would you have a problem if driving a sports car for fun included a mandatory carbon-sink tax that covered the car's pollution - if it became more expensive to make, buy, and run a car, but still permitted? As I understand it's already the case in most first world countries. The problem is that people have more than enough money to pay a few couple hundred dollars more per year. Money isn't enough of an incentive. Paying more tax on ICE vehicles (and extra for sport cars) to make it "carbon neutral" doesn't remove all the gases from city centers and won't prevent these gases to end up in our lungs. And yeah you're right, ships are way higher in the list than sport cars, but it's something you can mostly opt out of, just like sport cars.
    - jodrellblank 7y ago
      it's something you can mostly opt out of, just like sport cars. Yes, but how far do you take the rhetoric of name-calling people "entitled" down the slippery slope? Entitled for wanting to drive a sports car? Entitled for wanting to eat imported food? Entitled for wanting to wear imported clothes? Entitled for wanting to wear clean, patterned, well-fitting new clothes? Entitled for wanting to eat meat? Entitled for wanting to live in a space more than one room? Entitled for wanting water and electricity on-tap? Entitled for wanting to see the sun instead of an underground one-room home? Entitled for wanting to consume more than minimal-calorie quantity of nutrient gruel and move their feet outside the prescribed shoulder-width standing allocation? Adjusting to make carbon-neutral or carbon-negative choices is way better than name-calling trying to shame people for wanting to live their lives, in the environment they were born into, doing the things they learn from people around them. The problem is that people have more than enough money to pay a few couple hundred dollars more per year. .. good? That's not a problem? Paying more tax on ICE vehicles (and extra for sport cars) to make it "carbon neutral" doesn't remove all the gases from city centers and won't prevent these gases to end up in our lungs. That is a concern, and it is a concern of mine, but it's a goal-shift from talking about ICE and electric vehicles for climate change reasons.
Reason077 7y ago
> "Given the rate of failure and failure modes inherent in current battery technology in things like Teslas and such this market simply wont exist" It's true that batteries degrade over time, and might even need replacement in 10-15 years or so. But the rest of the electric drivetrain will last far longer than combustion counterparts: Tesla claims they're designing for 1,000,000 miles. Now, suppose it's the 2030s and you're in the market for a cheap used vehicle. There will very likely be a thriving 3rd-party industry upgrading the battery cells in old used EVs using the latest 2030s technology. And batteries will be much cheaper by then, too. If anything, electrification will mean better and more reliable used vehicles!
- rlpb 7y ago
  > There will very likely be a thriving 3rd-party industry upgrading the battery cells in old used EVs using the latest 2030s technology. I have doubts that third parties will be able to do much work on modern vehicles at all, due to proprietary software and vendor lock-in.
  - Reason077 7y ago
    I'm a bit more optimistic. But if necessary, "right to repair" legislation can be enacted so that specs, documentation, etc are made available to repairers and parts manufacturers.
piva00 7y ago
Being very honest: if you care about the environment you should forget about owning a personal car. I love cars, I raced in karting, I did some racing classes in GT cars ranging from 300-500 hp and had lots of fun with it, I used to drool over cars and specs and engines and dreamed about buying and maintaining my very own rally Subaru to be able to run some courses as an amateur and all of that jazz. I care much more about the environment than about cars, this hobby as it is should die if we want to live in this planet, personal cars are an abomination and a waste when people let them sitting parked for 90+% of the time, the amount of resources wasted to manufacture and maintain all of this fleet is mind-boggling... I understand in the US where people with families NEED a car because urbanism there sucks but if you don't NEED a personal car and can live with a car-sharing service or at least reduce from a car per person in the family to a car per family it's already a huge change. Check a bit your entitlement, a lot of things will suck in this transition to a more sustainable economy, everyone will be a bit inconvenienced but in the long run it's a much smaller inconvenience than having to deal with mass dying of fauna and flora, mass famine, droughts, migration and social unrest. And wars. EDIT: Also adding that another huge change that I've done for the environment is stopping consuming meat. There is no point, we eat it because it tastes good and that's it, some people might need some nutrients from meat but for the vast majority of the population a meatless diet is completely fine, if you want to eat meat then make it count, stop eating that shitty hamburger from McD and save yourself to eat meat as a treat, a very nice dinner with a steak that you know the origin. I'm originally from Brazil and I feel disgusted about how much mindless meat we eat there, every single day for multiple meals a day, it's staggering that no one bats an eye on the impact of that... And when I bring the topic up it's like I'm offending people personally, like eating meat is a right, it's the simplest way to change your behaviours and have some impact as it doesn't depend on anyone else nor any major change in industry. /rant
- collyw 7y ago
  I don't have nor intend to have kids. That will be far more beneficial than any of the measures that you propose.
  - adrianN 7y ago
rsynnott 7y ago
From the article, petrol cars won't be totally banned til 2045; you'll be able you have your 10-15 year old 2030 reg car.

dev_north_east 7y ago

PCPs for everyone! (joke, but seriously I think this is what they expect/want)

hannob 7y ago

> While I absolutely agree with the goal of reducing our species carbon production and associated impact on the environment, I have a more personal and selfish concern with these proposals. Congratulations for summarizing one of the main challenges of climate policy. Everyone's for it, except if it affects them personally.

close04 7y ago
This is a real dilemma because it's not always about choice in any reasonable interpretation. Some people may need a car for their livelihood but simply cannot afford anything better than a polluting clunker. Sometimes it is about choices made unwittingly. Imagine people who buy an EV because they think it's the best way to do their part even if 99.999% of their usage fits perfectly for bicycle and public transport (increased efficiency + added benefits not strictly related to global warming). In the end everyone will draw the line sooner or later. The point is to drop the bar and making it easier for most to take action. But people who expect everyone to be able to do it (usually based on the "I did it so if you don't you're just selfish" thinking) aren't very reasonable.
- lm28469 7y ago
  > Some people may need a car for their livelihood but simply cannot afford anything better than a polluting clunker. I think we can agree that no one _needs_ a sport car for their 'livelihood'. There are plenty of affordable new cars, they might be small and slow but at least they're safe and meet the current solution standard. And yeah people need trucks to tow or move things around, but that's something other than "entertainment".
  - close04 7y ago
    > I think we can agree that no one _needs_ a sport car for their 'livelihood' That's why I considered the "old clunker" case. But even the sports car part is debatable somehow. Look around you now. How many of the things in your line of sight are actually needs, and how many are wants? How many things have changed inside each layer of Maslow's hierarchy of needs over the past half a century or more? Do you need HN? Imagine if someone told you it's going down because you can save xxx KWh. :) I agree that a sports car may be a step too far even for this line of thinking but the point stands.
  - eertami 7y ago
    >There are plenty of affordable new cars, they might be small and slow Define affordable, because I'm never going to spend more than €2000 on a car so at the moment drive a small-ish but slow 1.6L petrol car from 2004. At least it was the smallest I could get away with while having to fit 190cm skis in the car everyday. I can't wait to go electric, but I think I'm 10 years away from being there myself. Also moving between rented accommodation in rural areas often with only street parking makes the whole "charging at home" thing quite a pain. I'm hoping by then things are better, but in the countryside I still think electric cars are going to be a tricky thing to migrate to.

NeedMoreTea 7y ago

A simple fix. 50% yearly increases in petrol tax. :)

DocTomoe 7y ago
How to kill your economy 101.

SuoDuanDao 7y ago

Doesn't this ban just apply to new cars? I would think the used car market would keep going mostly as it always has...

icebraining 7y ago
They also said they'll stop renewing the NCT (annual license required for cars older than 10y) after 2045.

sammorrowdrums 7y ago

I think this is the thing - it will take some lifestyle and leisure changes to make that happen, and individual freedom is simply not as important as fixing this - given that not fixing this is equivalent to losing all individual freedom via horrific means. Where I live cars are already somewhat unwelcome - and everyone bicycles or takes trams, metro, buses and trains. They are removing parking spaces by the thousands. Cities are gradually ceasing to be built around cars. The notion of high car ownership in the future seems questionable at this point full stop.

PebblesHD 7y ago
Spot on, especially in cities where you really only use a car on weekends or other ‘special’ occasions. If I could rent a nice electric car for Saturday and Sunday for a reasonable price, that would largely offset any potential lifestyle changes that such a law would introduce, as well as encouraging more people to reconsider personal transport during the week if possible.
- jodrellblank 7y ago
  If there were enough electric cars for everyone who wants one to rent one on Saturday and Sunday at a reasonable price, they may as well be used as personal transport during the week instead of left idling during the week, right?
sgt 7y ago
I do 4x4-ing so a relatively big engine is often a must, unless you compromise in other ways. Since I don't really want to lug around a beast on mud terrain tires all day, I have a few other vehicles that I drive to offset the environmental impact, and also the fuel bill. My daily transport is a BMW 530d which is very efficient on diesel, although I wish it were gasoline to be honest.
cinnamon_bun 7y ago
I envy you. It's the other way around in the third-world country where I happen to live. As the people climb out of poverty they deem it necessary to buy bigger and bigger cars. I think easily half of transport on the roads are giant SUVs, which are built like tanks and take 1.5 lanes. Each car takes ten times then space of one fat-ass behind the wheel. Also, I personally know a guy who makes a decent living from knowing (and applying) how to circumvent pollution controls on many car models. He has a large wait list from locals who want to up their fuel consumption by 20-30% to be able to make that 100 km/h one second faster. Absolutely nobody I ever talked to gives one flying fuck about environment pollution. They don't even care if it affects them personally (and it does, judging from the constant cough you hear from everybody all day long, and my sore throat, which has been sore every day for the last I don't know how many years).

bgarbiak 7y ago

I am pretty sure that ICE cars will survive as a hobby, that is: on the dedicated racetracks. On one hand it might get prohibitively expensive (track days are, already), on the other: since it will be the only way to enjoy driving a V8, etc. – it might get way more popular, and cheaper in the process.

kameltoz 7y ago

Do you really think the hobby of the automobile is going to disappear with EVs? Most top-end sports cars have either implementated a hybrid system or have gone full electric (think Formula E). Car manufacturers will follow at the consumer level and the Subaru fandom with them[1]. Obviously the petrolhead generation will have to adapt to the new cars but you shouldn't worry about a sunroof and leather seats. Right now the biggest barrier to entry is the capital cost of buying a new EV but 10-15 years down the line the second-hand market price shouldn't be much different than it is right now. [1]https://www.google.com/amp/s/electrek.co/2019/06/06/toyota-subaru-partner-electric-sus/amp/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/electrek.co/2019/06/06/toyota-s...

CapricornNoble 7y ago
Sure, some EVs are fast, but they don't deliver the same experience EMOTIONALLY, which is a very big part of what makes auto enthusiasts so attached to their hobby. And I'd argue most of that is the aural experience of roaring internal-combustion engine. It's why I prefer Inline-6 engines over most other configurations: they SOUND better. I have a fairly small-displacement (250cc) motorcycle with carburetors, objectively slower and less performant than some of the sports cars I've owned or ridden in, and yet it delivers a totally unique and stimulating experience. As a neophyte rider it still makes my spine tingle to go >100kph on this thing, while I don't bat an eye at bouncing off the electronically-limited top speed (~185kph) in my Evo. It wasn't until I experienced a motorcycle that I came to look at driving as just a little bit.....bland. And from a spectator perspective, not many people wanna watch EVs humming almost silently around a track. I think most gearheads will feel similarly: even if they are fast they are underwhelming as an emotive experience.

lm28469 7y ago

> The only way I’m able to have a reasonably nice car with good handling and entertaining performance > I’m sort of disappointed that my personal hobby is going to disappear Imagine if everyone was as entitled as that. The period of "we burn coal and gas for fun and entertainment" is over and we have to get over it. "Save the planet !" screams the dying ape, "as long as I don't have to personally do something".

jodrellblank 7y ago
A cruise ship emits as much pollution as 1,000,000 cars per day[1]. Name calling people while turning a blind eye that most pollution is shipping, air traffic and heavy manufacturing which profits by not having to pay for its own externalities, is totally mean-spirited and unhelpful. Would you have a problem if driving a sports car for fun included a mandatory carbon-sink tax that covered the car's pollution - if it became more expensive to make, buy, and run a car, but still permitted? [1]https://www.euractiv.com/section/air-pollution/news/daily-emissions-of-cruise-ships-same-as-one-million-cars/ https://www.euractiv.com/section/air-pollution/news/daily-em...
- lm28469 7y ago
  > Would you have a problem if driving a sports car for fun included a mandatory carbon-sink tax that covered the car's pollution - if it became more expensive to make, buy, and run a car, but still permitted? As I understand it's already the case in most first world countries. The problem is that people have more than enough money to pay a few couple hundred dollars more per year. Money isn't enough of an incentive. Paying more tax on ICE vehicles (and extra for sport cars) to make it "carbon neutral" doesn't remove all the gases from city centers and won't prevent these gases to end up in our lungs. And yeah you're right, ships are way higher in the list than sport cars, but it's something you can mostly opt out of, just like sport cars.
  - jodrellblank 7y ago
    it's something you can mostly opt out of, just like sport cars. Yes, but how far do you take the rhetoric of name-calling people "entitled" down the slippery slope? Entitled for wanting to drive a sports car? Entitled for wanting to eat imported food? Entitled for wanting to wear imported clothes? Entitled for wanting to wear clean, patterned, well-fitting new clothes? Entitled for wanting to eat meat? Entitled for wanting to live in a space more than one room? Entitled for wanting water and electricity on-tap? Entitled for wanting to see the sun instead of an underground one-room home? Entitled for wanting to consume more than minimal-calorie quantity of nutrient gruel and move their feet outside the prescribed shoulder-width standing allocation? Adjusting to make carbon-neutral or carbon-negative choices is way better than name-calling trying to shame people for wanting to live their lives, in the environment they were born into, doing the things they learn from people around them. The problem is that people have more than enough money to pay a few couple hundred dollars more per year. .. good? That's not a problem? Paying more tax on ICE vehicles (and extra for sport cars) to make it "carbon neutral" doesn't remove all the gases from city centers and won't prevent these gases to end up in our lungs. That is a concern, and it is a concern of mine, but it's a goal-shift from talking about ICE and electric vehicles for climate change reasons.

Reason077 7y ago

> "Given the rate of failure and failure modes inherent in current battery technology in things like Teslas and such this market simply wont exist" It's true that batteries degrade over time, and might even need replacement in 10-15 years or so. But the rest of the electric drivetrain will last far longer than combustion counterparts: Tesla claims they're designing for 1,000,000 miles. Now, suppose it's the 2030s and you're in the market for a cheap used vehicle. There will very likely be a thriving 3rd-party industry upgrading the battery cells in old used EVs using the latest 2030s technology. And batteries will be much cheaper by then, too. If anything, electrification will mean better and more reliable used vehicles!

rlpb 7y ago
> There will very likely be a thriving 3rd-party industry upgrading the battery cells in old used EVs using the latest 2030s technology. I have doubts that third parties will be able to do much work on modern vehicles at all, due to proprietary software and vendor lock-in.
- Reason077 7y ago
  I'm a bit more optimistic. But if necessary, "right to repair" legislation can be enacted so that specs, documentation, etc are made available to repairers and parts manufacturers.

piva00 7y ago

Being very honest: if you care about the environment you should forget about owning a personal car. I love cars, I raced in karting, I did some racing classes in GT cars ranging from 300-500 hp and had lots of fun with it, I used to drool over cars and specs and engines and dreamed about buying and maintaining my very own rally Subaru to be able to run some courses as an amateur and all of that jazz. I care much more about the environment than about cars, this hobby as it is should die if we want to live in this planet, personal cars are an abomination and a waste when people let them sitting parked for 90+% of the time, the amount of resources wasted to manufacture and maintain all of this fleet is mind-boggling... I understand in the US where people with families NEED a car because urbanism there sucks but if you don't NEED a personal car and can live with a car-sharing service or at least reduce from a car per person in the family to a car per family it's already a huge change. Check a bit your entitlement, a lot of things will suck in this transition to a more sustainable economy, everyone will be a bit inconvenienced but in the long run it's a much smaller inconvenience than having to deal with mass dying of fauna and flora, mass famine, droughts, migration and social unrest. And wars. EDIT: Also adding that another huge change that I've done for the environment is stopping consuming meat. There is no point, we eat it because it tastes good and that's it, some people might need some nutrients from meat but for the vast majority of the population a meatless diet is completely fine, if you want to eat meat then make it count, stop eating that shitty hamburger from McD and save yourself to eat meat as a treat, a very nice dinner with a steak that you know the origin. I'm originally from Brazil and I feel disgusted about how much mindless meat we eat there, every single day for multiple meals a day, it's staggering that no one bats an eye on the impact of that... And when I bring the topic up it's like I'm offending people personally, like eating meat is a right, it's the simplest way to change your behaviours and have some impact as it doesn't depend on anyone else nor any major change in industry. /rant

collyw 7y ago
I don't have nor intend to have kids. That will be far more beneficial than any of the measures that you propose.
- adrianN 7y ago

rsynnott 7y ago

From the article, petrol cars won't be totally banned til 2045; you'll be able you have your 10-15 year old 2030 reg car.