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Yay so we can switch to batteries that produce more carbon emissions in their production than the fuel the vehicle is spitting out. Ultimately just make the pro

Yay so we can switch to batteries that produce more carbon emissions in their production than the fuel the vehicle is spitting out. Ultimately just make the problem worse if you think about it.

new299 7y ago
Do you have a source? And are you saying that production of electric cars produces significantly more emissions than petrol?
- tristanperry 7y ago
  https://www.greencarfuture.com/electric/2018/12/12/are-evs-harmful-for-environment.html#1-emissions-from-building-the-electric-car https://www.greencarfuture.com/electric/2018/12/12/are-evs-h... The actual production of an EV _can_ result in more emissions (along the whole supply chain) than petrol cars, yes. Although the vast majority of car manufacturers (and supply companies) are geared up for producing petrol cars and not EVs, so it's no real surprise that _right now_ electric cars aren't as efficient to build. The more that electric cars are produced, and the more that Li-ion/solid-state batteries are developed, the better the picture will be at the building stage.
scandox 7y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_aspects_of_the_electric_car#Environmental_impact_of_manufacturing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_aspects_of_the_e... It appears to be quite a nuanced picture.
- tonyedgecombe 7y ago
  That table is interesting, it looks like we get the same benefits from switching to PHEV as going to full electric. I've always been slightly sceptical about the claims, just because the costs are so high. If you assume money is a reasonable proxy for energy then the high acquisition costs imply more emissions.
  - wongarsu 7y ago
    > If you assume money is a reasonable proxy for energy Everything points to money being a very poor proxy for energy. Part of our problem with climate change is that energy is usually one of the smallest contributors to cost, making incredibly wasteful supply chains economically preferable.
    - tonyedgecombe 7y ago
      Yet GDP per capita is strongly correlated with energy consumption: https://www.eea.europa.eu/data-and-maps/figures/correlation-of-per-capita-energy https://www.eea.europa.eu/data-and-maps/figures/correlation-...
- tialaramex 7y ago
  Note that in small print that table assumes 500g/kWh which is _very high_. If your electrical grid was entirely supplied by mediocre natural gas power plants (no hydro, no nuclear, no solar, no wind, nothing like that) you'd do 500g/kWh. Anywhere doing worse than that is burning coal, or as in Ireland, peat to make power, which is totally crazy independent of whether you have electric cars. Put a bunch of hydro, nukes, solar or wind in the mix and you're rapidly down to 200 or 300 gCO2/kWh. Nobody's ambition for 2030 ought to be as high as 500 gCO2/kWh electricity, if that's what you're expecting we're screwed.
geff82 7y ago
No. Every serious study shows that this is not the case. Especially when NOT talking about Teslas and their giant batteries. And even if electric cars would NOT be emitting less carbon emissions, they would still have positive health effects as cities will be quiter and have less polluted air. Even without any CO2-discussions, electric cars make sense (and who says there will be no fuel cells in the future).
adwww 7y ago
Technology alone isn't enough - you can't just switch ICE cars to EV cars and solve all transport and envrionmental problems. It needs to become normal (and desirable) to walk and cycle short journeys, and to take public transport - especially in urban areas that currently suffer from poor air quality and congestion.
mparramon 7y ago
Do you have data to support that statement?
adrianN 7y ago
The only way to carbon neutrality with ICE cars is synth-fuels. Making those consumes a lot more energy than manufacturing and charging batteries. It doesn't help that ICE have terrible efficiency.
alkonaut 7y ago
Now: if you buy a car made from batteries produced with electricity from coal etc. then the CO2-break-even of the car is a long way into the lifetime of the vehicle. And that's bad. But manufacturers will keep building battery plants and they will build them to take advantage of cheap and renewable energy. Hydro is already cheaper than coal in most cases, and the manufacturers avoid the risk of future fossil fuel taxes by using renewable. So manufacturers will place their battery factories in locations where cheap renewable energy is available. For example https://www.reuters.com/article/us-northvolt-funding-electric/swedens-northvolt-raises-1-billion-to-complete-funding-for-mammoth-battery-plant-idUSKCN1TD1WG https://www.reuters.com/article/us-northvolt-funding-electri...

Yay so we can switch to batteries that produce more carbon emissions in their production than the fuel the vehicle is spitting out. Ultimately just make the problem worse if you think about it.

new299 7y ago

Do you have a source? And are you saying that production of electric cars produces significantly more emissions than petrol?

tristanperry 7y ago
https://www.greencarfuture.com/electric/2018/12/12/are-evs-harmful-for-environment.html#1-emissions-from-building-the-electric-car https://www.greencarfuture.com/electric/2018/12/12/are-evs-h... The actual production of an EV _can_ result in more emissions (along the whole supply chain) than petrol cars, yes. Although the vast majority of car manufacturers (and supply companies) are geared up for producing petrol cars and not EVs, so it's no real surprise that _right now_ electric cars aren't as efficient to build. The more that electric cars are produced, and the more that Li-ion/solid-state batteries are developed, the better the picture will be at the building stage.

scandox 7y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_aspects_of_the_electric_car#Environmental_impact_of_manufacturing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_aspects_of_the_e... It appears to be quite a nuanced picture.

tonyedgecombe 7y ago
That table is interesting, it looks like we get the same benefits from switching to PHEV as going to full electric. I've always been slightly sceptical about the claims, just because the costs are so high. If you assume money is a reasonable proxy for energy then the high acquisition costs imply more emissions.
- wongarsu 7y ago
  > If you assume money is a reasonable proxy for energy Everything points to money being a very poor proxy for energy. Part of our problem with climate change is that energy is usually one of the smallest contributors to cost, making incredibly wasteful supply chains economically preferable.
  - tonyedgecombe 7y ago
    Yet GDP per capita is strongly correlated with energy consumption: https://www.eea.europa.eu/data-and-maps/figures/correlation-of-per-capita-energy https://www.eea.europa.eu/data-and-maps/figures/correlation-...
tialaramex 7y ago
Note that in small print that table assumes 500g/kWh which is _very high_. If your electrical grid was entirely supplied by mediocre natural gas power plants (no hydro, no nuclear, no solar, no wind, nothing like that) you'd do 500g/kWh. Anywhere doing worse than that is burning coal, or as in Ireland, peat to make power, which is totally crazy independent of whether you have electric cars. Put a bunch of hydro, nukes, solar or wind in the mix and you're rapidly down to 200 or 300 gCO2/kWh. Nobody's ambition for 2030 ought to be as high as 500 gCO2/kWh electricity, if that's what you're expecting we're screwed.

geff82 7y ago

No. Every serious study shows that this is not the case. Especially when NOT talking about Teslas and their giant batteries. And even if electric cars would NOT be emitting less carbon emissions, they would still have positive health effects as cities will be quiter and have less polluted air. Even without any CO2-discussions, electric cars make sense (and who says there will be no fuel cells in the future).

adwww 7y ago

Technology alone isn't enough - you can't just switch ICE cars to EV cars and solve all transport and envrionmental problems. It needs to become normal (and desirable) to walk and cycle short journeys, and to take public transport - especially in urban areas that currently suffer from poor air quality and congestion.

mparramon 7y ago

Do you have data to support that statement?

adrianN 7y ago

The only way to carbon neutrality with ICE cars is synth-fuels. Making those consumes a lot more energy than manufacturing and charging batteries. It doesn't help that ICE have terrible efficiency.

alkonaut 7y ago

Now: if you buy a car made from batteries produced with electricity from coal etc. then the CO2-break-even of the car is a long way into the lifetime of the vehicle. And that's bad. But manufacturers will keep building battery plants and they will build them to take advantage of cheap and renewable energy. Hydro is already cheaper than coal in most cases, and the manufacturers avoid the risk of future fossil fuel taxes by using renewable. So manufacturers will place their battery factories in locations where cheap renewable energy is available. For example https://www.reuters.com/article/us-northvolt-funding-electric/swedens-northvolt-raises-1-billion-to-complete-funding-for-mammoth-battery-plant-idUSKCN1TD1WG https://www.reuters.com/article/us-northvolt-funding-electri...