6 ms·

Here's the backstory: http://web.archive.org/web/20100310163744/http://www.stsc.hill.af.mil/crosstalk/2000/05/moody.html http://web.archive.org/web/201003101637

Here's the backstory: http://web.archive.org/web/20100310163744/http://www.stsc.hill.af.mil/crosstalk/2000/05/moody.html http://web.archive.org/web/20100310163744/http://www.stsc.hi...

stickfigure 7y ago
Wow. Reminds me of a joke my dad repeated to me many years ago: Software saved the aerospace industry. Every other way of adding cost to an airplane also adds weight. He spent most of his career at Lockheed and Rockwell.
- butteroverflow 7y ago
  I guess storing all those 1's also adds some weight. It costs on the order of antimatter if you think of it. What's it like, $50 million per 1 billionth of a gram, or so?
  - anyfoo 7y ago
    The only storage medium I can spontaneously think of where 1s are heavier than 0s is punch cards. I hope that is not the current primary storage method in the aerospace industry.
    - rudolph9 7y ago
      No but it’s a good... punch... line haha
    - sgillen 7y ago
      Well... technically most hard drives should change weight depending on their contents: https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/31326/is-a-hard-drive-heavier-when-it-is-full https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/31326/is-a-hard-...
      - anyfoo 7y ago
        Oh wow. And now that I read this, it dawned on me that any memory technology that is based on storing charge (like DRAM) will have actual, albeit also very very theoretical, mass differences depending on bit value as well...
        lwansbrough 7y ago
        The internet weighs about 50 grams: https://youtu.be/WaUzu-iksi8 https://youtu.be/WaUzu-iksi8
      - mrob 7y ago
        Hard disks use a run-length limited encoding, so the number of magnetic 1s and 0s remains roughly constant no matter what logical 1s and 0s you store. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Run-length_limited https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Run-length_limited
    - wumms 7y ago
      Nit-pick: 0s (no hole) are heavier than 1s (hole). http://www.punctum.com/interest/punch/index.en.html http://www.punctum.com/interest/punch/index.en.html
      - anyfoo 7y ago
        True, I should have said “weight difference”.
    - DrStalker 7y ago
      Some storage systems work by holding a charge, and electrons have mass. In practical terms it night as well be 0 but in silly discussions on the internet terms it's a very small non-zero value.
    - taurath 7y ago
      Now you've got me thinking about a hash checking algorithm by weighing the punch cards hah
      - stillworks 7y ago
        Interesting thought. Weighing can add an extra level of indirection ! Thinking a bit more... the same can be done in software too ?
      - dmurray 7y ago
        Weighing would only be slightly better than a simple parity check (a one-bit hash). It misses common errors like transposing two adjacent characters. However, you can get any number of additional bits by suspending the punch card from various locations along its perimeter, and measuring the angle at which it hangs.
    - throw0101a 7y ago
      > punch cards Is hanging chad a 0 or a 1?
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
      - phkahler 7y ago
        They're in superposition.
        throw0101a 7y ago
        Schrödinger's bit.
    - dougmwne 7y ago
      Is there any kind of energy, (and thus mass) associated with the decreased entropy of structured data files on a data storage device vs random noise? I don't recall the thermodynamics of data storage being covered during my college physics class.
  - ineedasername 7y ago
    This is why I always advocate for the use of specialized negative binary using 0 and -1 for weight-sensitive embedded products. For optimum weight characteristics you flip all unused storage space to -1. Careful though, too much empty space formated this way will result in negative gravitational pull and something like an Arduino with a high capacity SD card will float away.
- foobarge 7y ago
  Contrasts with "Measuring programming progress by lines of code is like measuring aircraft building progress by weight." - Bill Gates
dotancohen 7y ago
The way that the fine article was worded, it seems that the engineering team knew that they needed approximately 1.5M LOC before they has started. How could they have known that? Or is it simply poorly worded? > The ATF Team planned to develop approximately 1.5 million source lines of code, across more than 20 software development companies located throughout the U.S., Canada, and Europe.
- metaphor 7y ago
  System engineers in the defense industry have an insidious infatuation with SLOC metrics. To the detriment of many a development engineer, CMU SEI hasn't developed a better way to keep them preoccupied.
- aosmith 7y ago
  Also seems pretty low for a team that size. I would love to know their cost per line...
  - stcredzero 7y ago
    In aerospace, a hyphen might well be worth $80 million. https://priceonomics.com/the-typo-that-destroyed-a-space-shuttle/ https://priceonomics.com/the-typo-that-destroyed-a-space-shu...
    - dotancohen 7y ago
      Why is the URL referring to a space shuttle, when the vehicle lost was an expendable Venus probe (Mariner I)? It wasn't even the probe that failed, but rather the Agena (second stage on top of the Atlas) that failed.
- bigiain 7y ago
  Somebody had a development budget, they looked up how much software developers cost, and how many lines of code per day they write, and BINGO! we have a contractual business requirement for ((budget + 20%) / dev-day-rate * LOC-per-day) lines of code.
- 7y ago

Here's the backstory: http://web.archive.org/web/20100310163744/http://www.stsc.hill.af.mil/crosstalk/2000/05/moody.html http://web.archive.org/web/20100310163744/http://www.stsc.hi...

stickfigure 7y ago

Wow. Reminds me of a joke my dad repeated to me many years ago: Software saved the aerospace industry. Every other way of adding cost to an airplane also adds weight. He spent most of his career at Lockheed and Rockwell.

butteroverflow 7y ago
I guess storing all those 1's also adds some weight. It costs on the order of antimatter if you think of it. What's it like, $50 million per 1 billionth of a gram, or so?
- anyfoo 7y ago
  The only storage medium I can spontaneously think of where 1s are heavier than 0s is punch cards. I hope that is not the current primary storage method in the aerospace industry.
  - rudolph9 7y ago
    No but it’s a good... punch... line haha
  - sgillen 7y ago
    Well... technically most hard drives should change weight depending on their contents: https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/31326/is-a-hard-drive-heavier-when-it-is-full https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/31326/is-a-hard-...
    - anyfoo 7y ago
      Oh wow. And now that I read this, it dawned on me that any memory technology that is based on storing charge (like DRAM) will have actual, albeit also very very theoretical, mass differences depending on bit value as well...
      - lwansbrough 7y ago
        The internet weighs about 50 grams: https://youtu.be/WaUzu-iksi8 https://youtu.be/WaUzu-iksi8
    - mrob 7y ago
      Hard disks use a run-length limited encoding, so the number of magnetic 1s and 0s remains roughly constant no matter what logical 1s and 0s you store. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Run-length_limited https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Run-length_limited
  - wumms 7y ago
    Nit-pick: 0s (no hole) are heavier than 1s (hole). http://www.punctum.com/interest/punch/index.en.html http://www.punctum.com/interest/punch/index.en.html
    - anyfoo 7y ago
      True, I should have said “weight difference”.
  - DrStalker 7y ago
    Some storage systems work by holding a charge, and electrons have mass. In practical terms it night as well be 0 but in silly discussions on the internet terms it's a very small non-zero value.
  - taurath 7y ago
    Now you've got me thinking about a hash checking algorithm by weighing the punch cards hah
    - stillworks 7y ago
      Interesting thought. Weighing can add an extra level of indirection ! Thinking a bit more... the same can be done in software too ?
    - dmurray 7y ago
      Weighing would only be slightly better than a simple parity check (a one-bit hash). It misses common errors like transposing two adjacent characters. However, you can get any number of additional bits by suspending the punch card from various locations along its perimeter, and measuring the angle at which it hangs.
  - throw0101a 7y ago
    > punch cards Is hanging chad a 0 or a 1?
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - phkahler 7y ago
      They're in superposition.
      - throw0101a 7y ago
        Schrödinger's bit.
  - dougmwne 7y ago
    Is there any kind of energy, (and thus mass) associated with the decreased entropy of structured data files on a data storage device vs random noise? I don't recall the thermodynamics of data storage being covered during my college physics class.
- ineedasername 7y ago
  This is why I always advocate for the use of specialized negative binary using 0 and -1 for weight-sensitive embedded products. For optimum weight characteristics you flip all unused storage space to -1. Careful though, too much empty space formated this way will result in negative gravitational pull and something like an Arduino with a high capacity SD card will float away.
foobarge 7y ago
Contrasts with "Measuring programming progress by lines of code is like measuring aircraft building progress by weight." - Bill Gates

dotancohen 7y ago

The way that the fine article was worded, it seems that the engineering team knew that they needed approximately 1.5M LOC before they has started. How could they have known that? Or is it simply poorly worded? > The ATF Team planned to develop approximately 1.5 million source lines of code, across more than 20 software development companies located throughout the U.S., Canada, and Europe.

metaphor 7y ago
System engineers in the defense industry have an insidious infatuation with SLOC metrics. To the detriment of many a development engineer, CMU SEI hasn't developed a better way to keep them preoccupied.
aosmith 7y ago
Also seems pretty low for a team that size. I would love to know their cost per line...
- stcredzero 7y ago
  In aerospace, a hyphen might well be worth $80 million. https://priceonomics.com/the-typo-that-destroyed-a-space-shuttle/ https://priceonomics.com/the-typo-that-destroyed-a-space-shu...
  - dotancohen 7y ago
    Why is the URL referring to a space shuttle, when the vehicle lost was an expendable Venus probe (Mariner I)? It wasn't even the probe that failed, but rather the Agena (second stage on top of the Atlas) that failed.
bigiain 7y ago
Somebody had a development budget, they looked up how much software developers cost, and how many lines of code per day they write, and BINGO! we have a contractual business requirement for ((budget + 20%) / dev-day-rate * LOC-per-day) lines of code.
7y ago