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I agree for many of us ... but I think 'life is not easy' for the bottom 50%. Most people sling coffee, serve food, work in factories, panic around in delivery

I agree for many of us ... but I think 'life is not easy' for the bottom 50%. Most people sling coffee, serve food, work in factories, panic around in delivery vehicles all day, and with one wrongs step or bad health outcome they could be in doom. Lack of job stability, longer retirement, lack of community ... these things take their tole. Kind of a permanent existential anxiety. Just 'keeping on doing', facing the daily grind and all the little things, taking care of kids - without falling down (because the cost could be catastrophe) is actually 'facing adversity'.

DisruptiveDave 7y ago
Absolutely agree. I think everyone understands the relativity of perception when discussing "how hard things are" but that doesn't mean they put it into daily practice. It's very easy to get caught in your bubble.
GavinMcG 7y ago
Okay, tweak it to say overcoming meaningful adversity, that satisfies our need for narrative/place/existential order.
- sonnyblarney 7y ago
  Wow, no, this is almost insulting. Having to raise a family, maintain one's well-being, and being a good community member all while having to live in dour conditions that are never likely to improve, I would argue is actual adversity.
  - krustyburger 7y ago
    If one is convinced that their lot in life is dour, there is often no specific change or improvement that would change that outlook. Objectively, almost all of us in the Western world have it very good compared with the vast majority of human beings who have lived on this planet. This is true even if we work in menial jobs or have less than glamorous lifestyles.
  - icelancer 7y ago
    >> that are never likely to improve In the United States, your effort towards this goal have an insanely high correlation with actually making it happen. Perhaps the best in any country in the world, in fact.
    - thekelvinliu 7y ago
      "the american dream"
      - HNLurker2 7y ago
        Better than Christian country with cutthroat competition (Occidental countries are better)
    - AstralStorm 7y ago
      Have any data to actually back it up? Such as real number of people who made an effort and failed? And how they failed, and to where? And how well they were initially off?
  - GavinMcG 7y ago
    No one is arguing about the definition of adversity. Of course that's actual adversity. The point that you were ostensibly replying to, though, had to do with meaning and being the heroes of meaningful stories about our lives. You zeroed in on the single claim that "the average American doesn't face adversity" and ignored the broader context. Yes, that claim is literally false. But your response isn't one that addresses the substance of the comment you replied to.
DisruptiveDave 7y ago
This point also confirms my relativity of perception thoughts. Yes, compared to me, the bottom 50% certainly has more adversity. But why stop there? The bottom 50% in America is likely the top 20% somewhere else (I'm making all of this up, of course). Then the bottom 50% of that 20% is likely the top 1% somewhere else. And on and on it goes. I don't believe that thinking about nameless, faceless people thousands and thousands of miles away is particularly effective at altering daily behavior and mindset here, but it's important to recognize nonetheless.
- sonnyblarney 7y ago
  "I don't believe that thinking about nameless, faceless people thousands and thousands of miles away is particularly effective " But this is what is implied by the opening statement 'The Average American' etc. etc. , no? The 'The Average American' does face 'adversity', because most people are barely getting by. Imagine middle aged parents without spectacular health care coverage, someone gets a cavity and needs a root canal. That's $1000 - and actually beyond the 'average Americans' ability to pay for out of hand. A cavity can be little economic emergency. It means no car trip to Myrtle Beach, or no piano lessons for the kids, or worse, having to put it on the Credit Card, pay terrible rates etc.. And 'cousin Joe' was pulled over for DUI. He'll lose his job if he doesn't make bail, he needs you to co-sign for him. Now you have to make sure he shows up for court. Parents are inching older, have some income but likely need to go into a home, which will be exceedingly expensive. There are umpteen such challenges is 'most people's lives'. So I agree with the sentiment that normal, employed middle class families wherein there's stability and gainful employment, low crime etc. - yes, it's effete, and not much adversity there. There is a class of Americans for whom life doesn't have a lot of adversity, fully agree. But it's not 'most'.
  - sigstoat 7y ago
    > The 'The Average American' does face 'adversity', because most people are barely getting by. > ... > It means no car trip to Myrtle Beach were you trying to make the point that people concoct adversity where it doesn't exist? because i think you're doing good work on that front. keep it up.
nitwit005 7y ago
People regularly risk their lives and risk imprisonment for the chance to be a poor person in a wealthy country. If the daily grind is "adversity", there seem to be millions who want it desperately. And even those people are often better off than a typical human for most of history.

DisruptiveDave 7y ago

Absolutely agree. I think everyone understands the relativity of perception when discussing "how hard things are" but that doesn't mean they put it into daily practice. It's very easy to get caught in your bubble.

GavinMcG 7y ago

Okay, tweak it to say overcoming meaningful adversity, that satisfies our need for narrative/place/existential order.

sonnyblarney 7y ago
Wow, no, this is almost insulting. Having to raise a family, maintain one's well-being, and being a good community member all while having to live in dour conditions that are never likely to improve, I would argue is actual adversity.
- krustyburger 7y ago
  If one is convinced that their lot in life is dour, there is often no specific change or improvement that would change that outlook. Objectively, almost all of us in the Western world have it very good compared with the vast majority of human beings who have lived on this planet. This is true even if we work in menial jobs or have less than glamorous lifestyles.
- icelancer 7y ago
  >> that are never likely to improve In the United States, your effort towards this goal have an insanely high correlation with actually making it happen. Perhaps the best in any country in the world, in fact.
  - thekelvinliu 7y ago
    "the american dream"
    - HNLurker2 7y ago
      Better than Christian country with cutthroat competition (Occidental countries are better)
  - AstralStorm 7y ago
    Have any data to actually back it up? Such as real number of people who made an effort and failed? And how they failed, and to where? And how well they were initially off?
- GavinMcG 7y ago
  No one is arguing about the definition of adversity. Of course that's actual adversity. The point that you were ostensibly replying to, though, had to do with meaning and being the heroes of meaningful stories about our lives. You zeroed in on the single claim that "the average American doesn't face adversity" and ignored the broader context. Yes, that claim is literally false. But your response isn't one that addresses the substance of the comment you replied to.

DisruptiveDave 7y ago

This point also confirms my relativity of perception thoughts. Yes, compared to me, the bottom 50% certainly has more adversity. But why stop there? The bottom 50% in America is likely the top 20% somewhere else (I'm making all of this up, of course). Then the bottom 50% of that 20% is likely the top 1% somewhere else. And on and on it goes. I don't believe that thinking about nameless, faceless people thousands and thousands of miles away is particularly effective at altering daily behavior and mindset here, but it's important to recognize nonetheless.

sonnyblarney 7y ago
"I don't believe that thinking about nameless, faceless people thousands and thousands of miles away is particularly effective " But this is what is implied by the opening statement 'The Average American' etc. etc. , no? The 'The Average American' does face 'adversity', because most people are barely getting by. Imagine middle aged parents without spectacular health care coverage, someone gets a cavity and needs a root canal. That's $1000 - and actually beyond the 'average Americans' ability to pay for out of hand. A cavity can be little economic emergency. It means no car trip to Myrtle Beach, or no piano lessons for the kids, or worse, having to put it on the Credit Card, pay terrible rates etc.. And 'cousin Joe' was pulled over for DUI. He'll lose his job if he doesn't make bail, he needs you to co-sign for him. Now you have to make sure he shows up for court. Parents are inching older, have some income but likely need to go into a home, which will be exceedingly expensive. There are umpteen such challenges is 'most people's lives'. So I agree with the sentiment that normal, employed middle class families wherein there's stability and gainful employment, low crime etc. - yes, it's effete, and not much adversity there. There is a class of Americans for whom life doesn't have a lot of adversity, fully agree. But it's not 'most'.
- sigstoat 7y ago
  > The 'The Average American' does face 'adversity', because most people are barely getting by. > ... > It means no car trip to Myrtle Beach were you trying to make the point that people concoct adversity where it doesn't exist? because i think you're doing good work on that front. keep it up.

nitwit005 7y ago

People regularly risk their lives and risk imprisonment for the chance to be a poor person in a wealthy country. If the daily grind is "adversity", there seem to be millions who want it desperately. And even those people are often better off than a typical human for most of history.