5 ms·

If you've always lived in a society where things are generally bad then it's likely that at present times things are getting better even if only slightly. On t

by mbfg 7y ago

If you've always lived in a society where things are generally bad then it's likely that at present times things are getting better even if only slightly. On the other hand if you're living in places that have generally always been good, it's likely that things are starting to regress. Given that most of the people who comment about such things on social media and otherwise or likely from the latter camp, it's not surprising that the general tenor is pessimism. In America for instance many indicators are going south. Life expectancy, suicides, debt, freedoms, etc. While America has always had problems, it seems we are close to a tipping point where we may lose what semblance we had of a democracy.

Swizec 7y ago
> it seems we are close to a tipping point where we may lose what semblance we had of a democracy. Oh please. I grew up in a post-communist European country. You guys are doing great! Keep it up.
- edraferi 7y ago
  That’s exactly the problem though. Post-Soviet states money-bombing our politics out from underneath us. We know where that leads and don’t want it at all. Unfortunately they’re good at it so it’s taking time to vote our way out of the mess.
  - Swizec 7y ago
    The ability to vote your way out of this mess is pretty much the exact opposite of losing democracy.
    - oblib 7y ago
      Yep. Learning to sift truth from noise is the key to making that work and I think we're all getting better at that now than we were in 2016.
  - thrower123 7y ago
    The Russian propaganda canard is worrying, because it is this thought-terminator that prevents considering that there are actual people with real reasons for voting the way that they do. Are the Russian spy agencies conducting propaganda? Of course they are. Are they the reason Trump was elected, or people voted for Brexit, or the Yellow Vests are marching in Paris? Hell no.
    - koube 7y ago
      With how close the election was, it's a very short jump to conclude that hacking the emails of both the party and campaign of one side successfully directed the narrative enough to flip the election. You can easily see here that Russian cyberattacks were effective in washing out any message by the target candidate: https://news.gallup.com/poll/195596/email-dominates-americans-heard-clinton.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/195596/email-dominates-american...
      - kikoreis 7y ago
        To me, the point of any close election is to warn society that a massive proportion of the population is very unhappy with the status quo. In some ways, it's irrelevant if there is meddling to influence single digit percentages -- the real problem is that those unhappy people need to be understood and policies built to support them.
      - fuzz4lyfe 7y ago
        The key to the Clinton email server is that the purpose of it was to avoid FOIA requests. Any hacking in regards to it is closer to the law than the alternative.
        sanderjd 7y ago
        The hacking thing wasn't related to Clinton's emails, it was the DNC's emails, which are not subject to FOIA. That these things are conflated in many peoples' minds is ... kinda the point.
  - roenxi 7y ago
    As opposed to American corporate interests lining up to money bomb politics out from underneath you? Nobody seems to have contested that the emails released were real emails written by the Democrats. It is a pretty disgraceful violation of privacy, but ultimately if honestly talking about what your political opponents are doing is an election winning strategy the future is bright. Most of the evidence is telling the truth about politicians doesn't move the needle all that much. I doubt it is a trend that will catch on, the Republicans are probably going to stick to calling people names.
oblib 7y ago
I can agree that the rhetoric and division is heated right now to levels near what it was in the mid `60s - early `70s but I don't think we're as close to that tipping point as some might feel. By the mid 70s things calmed down a lot. It feels to me like we peaked in the year after Trump was elected and things have been easing since. I'm basing this mostly on my FB feed but I think it's a fairly good barometer to gauge it because I live in an area where 76% voted for Trump. They were riled up when they did that. My right leaning neighbors are posting near as many anti-liberal memes, almost no flat out lies about "liberals", and not much at all about Trump. This past year I started asking them to "make a list of things Trump has done that is good for us." and none, not one, has taken me up on that. Not even the "Wall" has been offered as an example. This doesn't mean most won't vote for him again, but it probably does mean not as many will vote. They're not as motivated as they were in `16. Not as feisty. And they don't have near the disdain for Bernie, or even Biden, as they still have for Hillary. They really do not like her. I have not heard a single one of them support Trump saying that he should get more than two terms or be appointed "President for Life". Right now almost none of them are posting anything at all about Trump. In fact, they haven't worked up a good outrage since the Kavanaugh hearings. Very few of my FB friends trust the big Corporate Network News anymore on either side. They're all producing to much "Opinion" which is blatantly one sided and they all focus on the same "News of the hour" stories. The result is the level of awareness of bias in those "News" reports has increased a lot the past couple of years and overall people are beginning to ignore it more now than they are to react with passion. It was getting scary for awhile there though.
- sanderjd 7y ago
  This is an encouraging anecdote but "not advocating for the overthrow of our constitutional system of government" seems like a pretty low bar to ask for in our fellow citizens...
- mbfg 7y ago
  At this point, it might not matter what the trumpists think, or how many there are. I seriously wonder if trump and the party in general just wont leave, whether its thru gross electoral cheating or otherwise. I expect most will claim I'm hyperbolic, and I understand why they would say that, but it doesnt dissuade me. Every society ends. Almost always abruptly, and with high levels of surprise. If I had told you in 2010, about today, would you think I was nuts? I'm sure you would have.
mymythisisthis 7y ago
For many, the small disappointments have added up. Your school music program was cut, your college raised its costs, you just missed getting a good job, the recession cost you a promotion, wages haven't gone up. It's been a death by a thousand cuts for many people. We've stopped being optimistic.
- JackFr 7y ago
  I don’t buy the death by a thousand cuts — by itself. I think the disappearance of a transcendent purpose, especially in the public sphere, combined with those little things that has brought on the pessimism. When everyone’s getting richer, being a hedonic consumption machine is a rewarding existence. But if ones highest purpose is a pleasant and pleasurable life, you’ll be ill prepared when adversity strikes.

by mbfg 7y ago

Swizec 7y ago

> it seems we are close to a tipping point where we may lose what semblance we had of a democracy. Oh please. I grew up in a post-communist European country. You guys are doing great! Keep it up.

edraferi 7y ago
That’s exactly the problem though. Post-Soviet states money-bombing our politics out from underneath us. We know where that leads and don’t want it at all. Unfortunately they’re good at it so it’s taking time to vote our way out of the mess.
- Swizec 7y ago
  The ability to vote your way out of this mess is pretty much the exact opposite of losing democracy.
  - oblib 7y ago
    Yep. Learning to sift truth from noise is the key to making that work and I think we're all getting better at that now than we were in 2016.
- thrower123 7y ago
  The Russian propaganda canard is worrying, because it is this thought-terminator that prevents considering that there are actual people with real reasons for voting the way that they do. Are the Russian spy agencies conducting propaganda? Of course they are. Are they the reason Trump was elected, or people voted for Brexit, or the Yellow Vests are marching in Paris? Hell no.
  - koube 7y ago
    With how close the election was, it's a very short jump to conclude that hacking the emails of both the party and campaign of one side successfully directed the narrative enough to flip the election. You can easily see here that Russian cyberattacks were effective in washing out any message by the target candidate: https://news.gallup.com/poll/195596/email-dominates-americans-heard-clinton.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/195596/email-dominates-american...
    - kikoreis 7y ago
      To me, the point of any close election is to warn society that a massive proportion of the population is very unhappy with the status quo. In some ways, it's irrelevant if there is meddling to influence single digit percentages -- the real problem is that those unhappy people need to be understood and policies built to support them.
    - fuzz4lyfe 7y ago
      The key to the Clinton email server is that the purpose of it was to avoid FOIA requests. Any hacking in regards to it is closer to the law than the alternative.
      - sanderjd 7y ago
        The hacking thing wasn't related to Clinton's emails, it was the DNC's emails, which are not subject to FOIA. That these things are conflated in many peoples' minds is ... kinda the point.
- roenxi 7y ago
  As opposed to American corporate interests lining up to money bomb politics out from underneath you? Nobody seems to have contested that the emails released were real emails written by the Democrats. It is a pretty disgraceful violation of privacy, but ultimately if honestly talking about what your political opponents are doing is an election winning strategy the future is bright. Most of the evidence is telling the truth about politicians doesn't move the needle all that much. I doubt it is a trend that will catch on, the Republicans are probably going to stick to calling people names.

oblib 7y ago

I can agree that the rhetoric and division is heated right now to levels near what it was in the mid `60s - early `70s but I don't think we're as close to that tipping point as some might feel. By the mid 70s things calmed down a lot. It feels to me like we peaked in the year after Trump was elected and things have been easing since. I'm basing this mostly on my FB feed but I think it's a fairly good barometer to gauge it because I live in an area where 76% voted for Trump. They were riled up when they did that. My right leaning neighbors are posting near as many anti-liberal memes, almost no flat out lies about "liberals", and not much at all about Trump. This past year I started asking them to "make a list of things Trump has done that is good for us." and none, not one, has taken me up on that. Not even the "Wall" has been offered as an example. This doesn't mean most won't vote for him again, but it probably does mean not as many will vote. They're not as motivated as they were in `16. Not as feisty. And they don't have near the disdain for Bernie, or even Biden, as they still have for Hillary. They really do not like her. I have not heard a single one of them support Trump saying that he should get more than two terms or be appointed "President for Life". Right now almost none of them are posting anything at all about Trump. In fact, they haven't worked up a good outrage since the Kavanaugh hearings. Very few of my FB friends trust the big Corporate Network News anymore on either side. They're all producing to much "Opinion" which is blatantly one sided and they all focus on the same "News of the hour" stories. The result is the level of awareness of bias in those "News" reports has increased a lot the past couple of years and overall people are beginning to ignore it more now than they are to react with passion. It was getting scary for awhile there though.

sanderjd 7y ago
This is an encouraging anecdote but "not advocating for the overthrow of our constitutional system of government" seems like a pretty low bar to ask for in our fellow citizens...
mbfg 7y ago
At this point, it might not matter what the trumpists think, or how many there are. I seriously wonder if trump and the party in general just wont leave, whether its thru gross electoral cheating or otherwise. I expect most will claim I'm hyperbolic, and I understand why they would say that, but it doesnt dissuade me. Every society ends. Almost always abruptly, and with high levels of surprise. If I had told you in 2010, about today, would you think I was nuts? I'm sure you would have.

mymythisisthis 7y ago

For many, the small disappointments have added up. Your school music program was cut, your college raised its costs, you just missed getting a good job, the recession cost you a promotion, wages haven't gone up. It's been a death by a thousand cuts for many people. We've stopped being optimistic.

JackFr 7y ago
I don’t buy the death by a thousand cuts — by itself. I think the disappearance of a transcendent purpose, especially in the public sphere, combined with those little things that has brought on the pessimism. When everyone’s getting richer, being a hedonic consumption machine is a rewarding existence. But if ones highest purpose is a pleasant and pleasurable life, you’ll be ill prepared when adversity strikes.