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I simply do not want a "smart" TV. No internet access, no apps - just a lot of HDMI inputs, CEC, and a display. Sadly, this is getting harder and harder to find

I simply do not want a "smart" TV. No internet access, no apps - just a lot of HDMI inputs, CEC, and a display. Sadly, this is getting harder and harder to find. When I went to buy last time, Costco didn't have any "dumb" TVs, so all I did was refuse to hook it up to the internet. I got a Roku and a Chromecast. Those provide better "smart" functionality than any TV ever could.

tombert 7y ago
I agree; I bought a Vizio TV a few months back. It had all this smart crap built in, but it was pathetic compared to even some of the cheaper AndroidTV boxes you could buy on Amazon or Walmart for ~$40.
- behringer 7y ago
  I use my Vizio TV for my computer monitor. That's all it ever does is be a monitor. Except when my computer breaks and I have to repair it. For a day or two, that built in netflix app is a wonder :)
- xeonoex 7y ago
  New Vizio's are pretty much dumb TVs with built in Chromecasts. Which is exactly what I want. Every Smart TV interface I've used is worse than using my phone as a remote, or Google Home voice commands to control my TV. The experience isn't perfect, but it's pretty good.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
radiorental 7y ago
TCLs are 'dumb' tv's with a Roku built in. They're quite popular so I might be missing why these are to be avoided and/or network disabled and Roku over HDMI is preferred?
- kevin_thibedeau 7y ago
  They're superior to a standalone Roku for ease of use, at least until the hardware goes unsupported which will be a while. One annoyance with mine using the RokuTV speakers is that speakers drop out and don't maintain a consistent volume level whenever the WAN connection is lost. Something is taking up too much processor time trying to connect to the outside world. The speakers are unfortunately the only way to get AGC in a stereo system because the TV itself can't do it for whatever reason.
- everdrive 7y ago
  I managed to get a dumb TCL off Amazon in December 2018. I think you might still be able to get one. It was the 2017 model. The TV is fine enough. The display ghosts if you're playing any quick video games though. It's not the worst ghosting I've seen, but it's not great.
- xeonoex 7y ago
  I have a Vizio and a TCL tv right next to each other in my living room. The Vizio is the main TV and is connected to a sound system with ARC and all that. The TCL is off to the side and mostly used for gaming. If I turn on my PS4 with the controller, it turns on the Vizio TV and the Yamaha receiver, and sets it to the correct inputs. If I turn on the PS4 on the TCL, the TV does turn on even though CEC is enabled. I have to turn on the TV manually. A dumb tv would go back to the input I left it on, but the TCL goes to the home screen. I have to go and pick the PS4 input every time I turn on the TV. So I have just wanted dumb TVs before. When setup properly and everything works properly, they're great. But there has also been a time when turning the PS4 on in the main setup would turn everything on, but then put it on the wrong input (ARC is on 1, PS4 is on 5, it would switch to ARC whenever the PS4 home button was pushed). There is a big blurry line between smart and dumb which is more inconvenient than either.
  - wilsonnb3 7y ago
    I think there's a setting on the TCL to make it show the last input when you turn it on instead of the home screen. At least, there is on my TCL roku tv.
shawnz 7y ago
Given that it's easily possible to simply not use the "smart" features as you describe, what's the advantage to these manufactures spending extra money/resources maintaining the "dumb" SKUs? Wouldn't it be a better value for everyone involved to just make sure the "smart" features can be turned off?
- salawat 7y ago
  The problem there is that they'd rather just do everything in software. Hardware kill switches went out of vogue even before THERAC-25.
- deogeo 7y ago
  If the smart features can be turned off, then they won't be able to force ads onto you [1,2], or spy on you [3]. They are antifeatures, taking control of your TV so they may extract more money from you, one way or another. Being able to turn them off would completely defeat that. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20201561 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20201561 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20202138 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20202138 [3] https://www.zdnet.com/article/lg-smart-tvs-send-viewing-habits-filenames-back-to-manufacturer/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/lg-smart-tvs-send-viewing-habi...
  - shawnz 7y ago
    Although troubling, I don't think this is something for which smart TV technology itself is at fault. Plenty of smart TVs exist without ads and they are apparently still profitable.
    - deogeo 7y ago
      I agree, it's not the technology itself. I think it's due to the industry maturing and consolidating, and simply optimizing - they look for new avenues of profit, and they happened to have found user-hostile ones. But be careful with "TVs exist without ads and they are apparently still profitable" - 'profitable' won't stop them if adding ads means they could be more profitable.
xeonoex 7y ago
Vizio TVs now are little more than dumb TVs with chromecast built in. Which is pretty much what I want.
DavideNL 7y ago
Your Chromecast is tracking you just like those Smart tvs... and selling your data just the same.
- drspacemonkey 7y ago
  Very true. But given the choice between "tracking and secure enough that I don't have to care about it", and "tracking and leaky as a sieve", I'll choose the former. At least a Chromecast is cheap and replaceable with a de-googled AndroidTV box without having to toss the whole TV.
scarface74 7y ago
So you don’t want a smart TV but you’re okay with Roku - whose CEO said on an interview that their entire business model is selling user data, half the home screen has an ad, and the hard coded buttons on the remote go to highest bidder? Chromecast is sold by a business whose entire model is collecting user data and selling advertising. Don’t get me wrong, I love my TCL Roku TVs - I have three. But let’s call a spade a spade. Also, my main one is setup to go directly to the HDMI port used by my AppleTV.
- Spivak 7y ago
  I don't think it's really about the data collection or whatever. The problem is that today, right now, you will get a much better experience with a dumb TV and a smart appliance than a smart TV. Like the software quality is better, you can mix and match devices, you get feature and security updates, the apps are better, you get support, the apps don't EOL when next year's model comes out. I don't really care if TV's bundle their software stack into the device -- clearly some people like them. It's the TVs that put ads on the input selection menu that go straight to my shitlist.
  - scarface74 7y ago
    I agree. I wouldn’t get any smart TV besides one with Roku built in. As much as I despise the ads, Roku has a long history of supporting their devices as long as feasible.
- wlesieutre 7y ago
  I had a Roku 3, which was nice when I got it. Then they started patching ads in everywhere. I've since chucked it and sworn off the company. Apple TV is the only "smart TV" device that I'd trust to not patch in ads like that at this point. Similarly, it's the only one I trust to not be spying on me for data brokers.
- saagarjha 7y ago
  I’d trust them a lot more than my average TV manufacturer to keep their products up-to-date.
mikepurvis 7y ago
I'm not even sure multiple inputs are all that desirable at this point. Better to just get a nice AV receiver unit that can handle all that for you and has the interface stuff you want. Of course, the same argument applies to this as to the smart TV features— if the cost to include extra ports is small and many people still use them, it's easier for the manufacturer to just include them everywhere than maintain a product variant.
- tzs 7y ago
  > I'm not even sure multiple inputs are all that desirable at this point. Better to just get a nice AV receiver unit that can handle all that for you and has the interface stuff you want Multiple inputs on the TV can be nice for temporary things. Rather than keep my SNES Classic, NES Classic, and Switch all hooked up all the time, I'd rather keep them in a closet, and just plug then in when I actually want to play a game. My receiver inputs are in the back, and the receiver is on a shelf below the TV. It's a pain to get to them, requiring moving some stuff out of the way and sliding the stand out. The TV inputs are on the back of the TV but near the edge, and are pretty easy to get to without having to move anything. On the other hand, hooking things up to the receiver directly means no issues getting sound to work. For the longest time, I just could not get ARC to work to get sound from the TV to the receiver. Eventually, I noticed that the receiver manual specifically said that to use ARC the device had to be connected with a "Standard HDMI cable with Ethernet" or "High Speed HDMI cable with Ethernet". So I swapped out my regular HDMI cable for one "with Ethernet", and ARC immediately started working. This, of course, makes no sense whatsoever. To quote HDMI.org, the people that are in charge of HDMI, "All HDMI cables will support Audio Return Channel functionality when connected to Audio Return Channel-enabled devices. You can use your existing HDMI cables or choose a different cable type" [1]. If we were talking about eARC, this would make sense. eARC requires a "with Ethernet" cable to get the bandwidth it needs. But that's an HDMI 2.1 thing, released at the end of 2017. My receiver is from 2011, long before 2.1 was even on the horizon. (The TV is also too old for eARC). [1] https://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/hdmi_1_4/arc.aspx https://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/hdmi_1_4/arc.aspx
  - mikepurvis 7y ago
thrower123 7y ago
Same. The Comcast box that I have to have to use the regular cable has all the apps I would want to use built into it anyway.
urda 7y ago
Both that Roku and Chromecast are spying on you just as much, and possibly more than, than those "smart" TVs you're avoiding.
ascagnel_ 7y ago
Get a good A/V receiver or soundbar (TV speakers were always second-rate, and flat-screen speakers are uniformly terrible) that can handle HDMI switching and powering your TV on & off, and get a display marketed as "commercial signage". Commercial signage displays are usually more expensive (and are rated for more screen-hours), and lack the smart junk that this article is talking about.

tombert 7y ago

I agree; I bought a Vizio TV a few months back. It had all this smart crap built in, but it was pathetic compared to even some of the cheaper AndroidTV boxes you could buy on Amazon or Walmart for ~$40.

behringer 7y ago
I use my Vizio TV for my computer monitor. That's all it ever does is be a monitor. Except when my computer breaks and I have to repair it. For a day or two, that built in netflix app is a wonder :)
xeonoex 7y ago
New Vizio's are pretty much dumb TVs with built in Chromecasts. Which is exactly what I want. Every Smart TV interface I've used is worse than using my phone as a remote, or Google Home voice commands to control my TV. The experience isn't perfect, but it's pretty good.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

radiorental 7y ago

TCLs are 'dumb' tv's with a Roku built in. They're quite popular so I might be missing why these are to be avoided and/or network disabled and Roku over HDMI is preferred?

kevin_thibedeau 7y ago
They're superior to a standalone Roku for ease of use, at least until the hardware goes unsupported which will be a while. One annoyance with mine using the RokuTV speakers is that speakers drop out and don't maintain a consistent volume level whenever the WAN connection is lost. Something is taking up too much processor time trying to connect to the outside world. The speakers are unfortunately the only way to get AGC in a stereo system because the TV itself can't do it for whatever reason.
everdrive 7y ago
I managed to get a dumb TCL off Amazon in December 2018. I think you might still be able to get one. It was the 2017 model. The TV is fine enough. The display ghosts if you're playing any quick video games though. It's not the worst ghosting I've seen, but it's not great.
xeonoex 7y ago
I have a Vizio and a TCL tv right next to each other in my living room. The Vizio is the main TV and is connected to a sound system with ARC and all that. The TCL is off to the side and mostly used for gaming. If I turn on my PS4 with the controller, it turns on the Vizio TV and the Yamaha receiver, and sets it to the correct inputs. If I turn on the PS4 on the TCL, the TV does turn on even though CEC is enabled. I have to turn on the TV manually. A dumb tv would go back to the input I left it on, but the TCL goes to the home screen. I have to go and pick the PS4 input every time I turn on the TV. So I have just wanted dumb TVs before. When setup properly and everything works properly, they're great. But there has also been a time when turning the PS4 on in the main setup would turn everything on, but then put it on the wrong input (ARC is on 1, PS4 is on 5, it would switch to ARC whenever the PS4 home button was pushed). There is a big blurry line between smart and dumb which is more inconvenient than either.
- wilsonnb3 7y ago
  I think there's a setting on the TCL to make it show the last input when you turn it on instead of the home screen. At least, there is on my TCL roku tv.

shawnz 7y ago

Given that it's easily possible to simply not use the "smart" features as you describe, what's the advantage to these manufactures spending extra money/resources maintaining the "dumb" SKUs? Wouldn't it be a better value for everyone involved to just make sure the "smart" features can be turned off?

salawat 7y ago
The problem there is that they'd rather just do everything in software. Hardware kill switches went out of vogue even before THERAC-25.
deogeo 7y ago
If the smart features can be turned off, then they won't be able to force ads onto you [1,2], or spy on you [3]. They are antifeatures, taking control of your TV so they may extract more money from you, one way or another. Being able to turn them off would completely defeat that. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20201561 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20201561 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20202138 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20202138 [3] https://www.zdnet.com/article/lg-smart-tvs-send-viewing-habits-filenames-back-to-manufacturer/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/lg-smart-tvs-send-viewing-habi...
- shawnz 7y ago
  Although troubling, I don't think this is something for which smart TV technology itself is at fault. Plenty of smart TVs exist without ads and they are apparently still profitable.
  - deogeo 7y ago
    I agree, it's not the technology itself. I think it's due to the industry maturing and consolidating, and simply optimizing - they look for new avenues of profit, and they happened to have found user-hostile ones. But be careful with "TVs exist without ads and they are apparently still profitable" - 'profitable' won't stop them if adding ads means they could be more profitable.

xeonoex 7y ago

Vizio TVs now are little more than dumb TVs with chromecast built in. Which is pretty much what I want.

DavideNL 7y ago

Your Chromecast is tracking you just like those Smart tvs... and selling your data just the same.

drspacemonkey 7y ago
Very true. But given the choice between "tracking and secure enough that I don't have to care about it", and "tracking and leaky as a sieve", I'll choose the former. At least a Chromecast is cheap and replaceable with a de-googled AndroidTV box without having to toss the whole TV.

scarface74 7y ago

So you don’t want a smart TV but you’re okay with Roku - whose CEO said on an interview that their entire business model is selling user data, half the home screen has an ad, and the hard coded buttons on the remote go to highest bidder? Chromecast is sold by a business whose entire model is collecting user data and selling advertising. Don’t get me wrong, I love my TCL Roku TVs - I have three. But let’s call a spade a spade. Also, my main one is setup to go directly to the HDMI port used by my AppleTV.

Spivak 7y ago
I don't think it's really about the data collection or whatever. The problem is that today, right now, you will get a much better experience with a dumb TV and a smart appliance than a smart TV. Like the software quality is better, you can mix and match devices, you get feature and security updates, the apps are better, you get support, the apps don't EOL when next year's model comes out. I don't really care if TV's bundle their software stack into the device -- clearly some people like them. It's the TVs that put ads on the input selection menu that go straight to my shitlist.
- scarface74 7y ago
  I agree. I wouldn’t get any smart TV besides one with Roku built in. As much as I despise the ads, Roku has a long history of supporting their devices as long as feasible.
wlesieutre 7y ago
I had a Roku 3, which was nice when I got it. Then they started patching ads in everywhere. I've since chucked it and sworn off the company. Apple TV is the only "smart TV" device that I'd trust to not patch in ads like that at this point. Similarly, it's the only one I trust to not be spying on me for data brokers.
saagarjha 7y ago
I’d trust them a lot more than my average TV manufacturer to keep their products up-to-date.

mikepurvis 7y ago

I'm not even sure multiple inputs are all that desirable at this point. Better to just get a nice AV receiver unit that can handle all that for you and has the interface stuff you want. Of course, the same argument applies to this as to the smart TV features— if the cost to include extra ports is small and many people still use them, it's easier for the manufacturer to just include them everywhere than maintain a product variant.

tzs 7y ago
> I'm not even sure multiple inputs are all that desirable at this point. Better to just get a nice AV receiver unit that can handle all that for you and has the interface stuff you want Multiple inputs on the TV can be nice for temporary things. Rather than keep my SNES Classic, NES Classic, and Switch all hooked up all the time, I'd rather keep them in a closet, and just plug then in when I actually want to play a game. My receiver inputs are in the back, and the receiver is on a shelf below the TV. It's a pain to get to them, requiring moving some stuff out of the way and sliding the stand out. The TV inputs are on the back of the TV but near the edge, and are pretty easy to get to without having to move anything. On the other hand, hooking things up to the receiver directly means no issues getting sound to work. For the longest time, I just could not get ARC to work to get sound from the TV to the receiver. Eventually, I noticed that the receiver manual specifically said that to use ARC the device had to be connected with a "Standard HDMI cable with Ethernet" or "High Speed HDMI cable with Ethernet". So I swapped out my regular HDMI cable for one "with Ethernet", and ARC immediately started working. This, of course, makes no sense whatsoever. To quote HDMI.org, the people that are in charge of HDMI, "All HDMI cables will support Audio Return Channel functionality when connected to Audio Return Channel-enabled devices. You can use your existing HDMI cables or choose a different cable type" [1]. If we were talking about eARC, this would make sense. eARC requires a "with Ethernet" cable to get the bandwidth it needs. But that's an HDMI 2.1 thing, released at the end of 2017. My receiver is from 2011, long before 2.1 was even on the horizon. (The TV is also too old for eARC). [1] https://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/hdmi_1_4/arc.aspx https://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/hdmi_1_4/arc.aspx
- mikepurvis 7y ago

thrower123 7y ago

Same. The Comcast box that I have to have to use the regular cable has all the apps I would want to use built into it anyway.

urda 7y ago

Both that Roku and Chromecast are spying on you just as much, and possibly more than, than those "smart" TVs you're avoiding.

ascagnel_ 7y ago

Get a good A/V receiver or soundbar (TV speakers were always second-rate, and flat-screen speakers are uniformly terrible) that can handle HDMI switching and powering your TV on & off, and get a display marketed as "commercial signage". Commercial signage displays are usually more expensive (and are rated for more screen-hours), and lack the smart junk that this article is talking about.