4 ms·

France doesn't control its borders. The border of the schengen zone is long and porous (like all borders). I don't want to underestimate the difficulties for re

France doesn't control its borders. The border of the schengen zone is long and porous (like all borders). I don't want to underestimate the difficulties for refugies getting a start in France. People with no papers can enrol their kids in school and get some health care. To get expelled from the country, in addition to having no papers, you have to be a threat to public order, or be caught working illegally. So people 'employed' by gig workers would be exposing themselves to expulsion.

daemin 7y ago
You could say that Spain, Poland, and Hungary are controlling France's borders, since those countries (that I know of) that have land borders with countries outside the EU.
- gyaniv 7y ago
  You seem to forget that a lot of the refugees are coming from the sea (by boat), so that adds those that border with the Mediterranean, including Greece, Italy, and oh yeah, France.
_petronius 7y ago
> France doesn't control its borders. This is reductive to the point of misleading. France does control its borders, but has chosen to accept the freedom of movement of Schengen, become a party to the Dublin Regulation, and participate in Frontex. The idea that France is helpless to deal with the question of how it treats the migrants and the asylum seekers within its borders because of these agreements is to absolve them of responsibility towards people that they have taken on through those choices in addition to their own domestic law. Telling people they can't work at all in your country, when they have nowhere else to go, is cruel. That is a choice France -- and other countries like Germany -- have made, and should be held responsible for. (PS, I also disagree with the characterisation of the European borders as 'porous', given how much money, manpower, and how many human lives are expended enforcing them. If they were porous, people would not be drowning in the Mediterranean trying to reach Europe.)
- baud147258 7y ago
  > when they have nowhere else to go Which is not the case of most migrants, including those that arrived illegally / whose stay is illegal: they are economic migrants who just want access better conditions of living (or take advantage of Jus soli/free education/free healthcare). Regardless of why they are here, they aren't refugee whose return to their country of origin is blocked by civil war.
- bbsimonbb 7y ago
  You clearly have strong points of view on the subject, but did you read my comment? France's physical borders with all neighbouring countries except Switzerland are open. You just drive, or walk, or ski across. The Italian one is notionally open but police pass in the trains and the police presence near the border can be noticeable. The Swiss one is notionally controlled but tens of thousands of cars pass every day and hardly any are stopped. A brown friend skiing out of a French resort wasn't aware of crossing the border, but still spent his whole day in a Swiss border post. Nowhere do I, or would I, try to absolve France or any other country of its responsibilities. If you're in France with no legal basis, you can work. You can sign a regular work contract. Moreover, a work contract or the promise of one, will (at least in theory I've never tried it) let you get papers to stay. The instructions are [here](https://www.legalplace.fr/guides/promesse-embauche-sans-papier/ https://www.legalplace.fr/guides/promesse-embauche-sans-papi...). If you apply for asylum, you cannot work for 6 months, but you will receive an allowance during this time. Instructions [here](https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F2741 https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F2741). France has at various times taken in "lots" of refugies. Most recently returning colonists from Algeria, but also Spanish, Portugese, Russian and Armenian, as well as "poor" immigrants from a string of places. France, unlike some of it's neighbours, operates a "droit du sol" citizenship policy. Immigrants and/or their children can become French.

daemin 7y ago

You could say that Spain, Poland, and Hungary are controlling France's borders, since those countries (that I know of) that have land borders with countries outside the EU.

gyaniv 7y ago
You seem to forget that a lot of the refugees are coming from the sea (by boat), so that adds those that border with the Mediterranean, including Greece, Italy, and oh yeah, France.

_petronius 7y ago

> France doesn't control its borders. This is reductive to the point of misleading. France does control its borders, but has chosen to accept the freedom of movement of Schengen, become a party to the Dublin Regulation, and participate in Frontex. The idea that France is helpless to deal with the question of how it treats the migrants and the asylum seekers within its borders because of these agreements is to absolve them of responsibility towards people that they have taken on through those choices in addition to their own domestic law. Telling people they can't work at all in your country, when they have nowhere else to go, is cruel. That is a choice France -- and other countries like Germany -- have made, and should be held responsible for. (PS, I also disagree with the characterisation of the European borders as 'porous', given how much money, manpower, and how many human lives are expended enforcing them. If they were porous, people would not be drowning in the Mediterranean trying to reach Europe.)

baud147258 7y ago
> when they have nowhere else to go Which is not the case of most migrants, including those that arrived illegally / whose stay is illegal: they are economic migrants who just want access better conditions of living (or take advantage of Jus soli/free education/free healthcare). Regardless of why they are here, they aren't refugee whose return to their country of origin is blocked by civil war.
bbsimonbb 7y ago
You clearly have strong points of view on the subject, but did you read my comment? France's physical borders with all neighbouring countries except Switzerland are open. You just drive, or walk, or ski across. The Italian one is notionally open but police pass in the trains and the police presence near the border can be noticeable. The Swiss one is notionally controlled but tens of thousands of cars pass every day and hardly any are stopped. A brown friend skiing out of a French resort wasn't aware of crossing the border, but still spent his whole day in a Swiss border post. Nowhere do I, or would I, try to absolve France or any other country of its responsibilities. If you're in France with no legal basis, you can work. You can sign a regular work contract. Moreover, a work contract or the promise of one, will (at least in theory I've never tried it) let you get papers to stay. The instructions are [here](https://www.legalplace.fr/guides/promesse-embauche-sans-papier/ https://www.legalplace.fr/guides/promesse-embauche-sans-papi...). If you apply for asylum, you cannot work for 6 months, but you will receive an allowance during this time. Instructions [here](https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F2741 https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F2741). France has at various times taken in "lots" of refugies. Most recently returning colonists from Algeria, but also Spanish, Portugese, Russian and Armenian, as well as "poor" immigrants from a string of places. France, unlike some of it's neighbours, operates a "droit du sol" citizenship policy. Immigrants and/or their children can become French.