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It is not useful to use the many failings of coal as a fuel to promote nuclear power. Nuclear power does not compete against coal, it competes against wind/sol

It is not useful to use the many failings of coal as a fuel to promote nuclear power. Nuclear power does not compete against coal, it competes against wind/solar and natural gas. The constant refrain of 'but coal ..' from nuclear advocates is just an admission that nuclear power is un-economic and unable to compete in the marketplace against the best options.

bsaul 7y ago
Then why do i keep hearing that germany has been producing a lot more pollution since they stopped nuclear power because of coal and gaz being used as a subsitute source of energy ?
- cygx 7y ago
  No idea why you keep hearing that: Failure to meet your reduction goals does not equate an increase in pollution. https://www.umweltbundesamt.de/sites/default/files/medien/384/bilder/5_abb_trend-emi_2019.png https://www.umweltbundesamt.de/sites/default/files/medien/38...
- brazzy 7y ago
  Because people are misrepresenting facts (aka. lying) Germany did not stop using nuclear power, it started phasing it out (which had actually been planned long before Fukushima), and has not been producing more pollution because it has in fact been replacing coal and gas as well as nuclear with renewable sources: https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/germanys-energy-consumption-and-power-mix-charts https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/germanys-energy-c...
  - cygx 7y ago
    Germany has actually slightly increased its gas usage - though compared to other energy sources, its currently more of a rounding error in magnitude: 2002 2018 Total 503 545 Coal+Oil 253 205 Nuclear 156 72 Gas 40 44 Biomass 4 45 Wind+Solar+Hydro 39 177 Other 10 3 https://www.energy-charts.de/energy.htm?source=all-sources&period=annual&year=all https://www.energy-charts.de/energy.htm?source=all-sources&p...
    - brazzy 7y ago
      More significantly, the increase in gas is more than offset by a decrease in coal and oil.
      - jhayward 7y ago
        Right. Quantitatively: Coal declined by 48 TWh Gas increased by 4 TWh. Nuclear declined by 84 TWh. Renewables picked up the slack by adding 130 TWh of generation.
coredog64 7y ago
Natural gas plants are frequently peak load plants: They’re expensive, but they’re cheaper than a brownout or blackout. Wind is intermittent. Solar is too (with the exception of solar thermal). Nuclear is, was, and always will be about base load the same as coal.
scott_s 7y ago
Nuclear power does not compete against wind and solar, as wind and solar are intermittent power sources. Nuclear is a firm energy source, in that we can use it to create steady-state power during periods that intermittent sources are not available. Coal is also a firm energy source, so coal and nuclear definitely compete. For more, "There is No One Energy Solution", https://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/there-is-no-one-energy-solution/ https://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/there-is-no-on...
- cygx 7y ago
  Once you combine them with storage and peakers, intermittent renewable sources do compete with other base load providers. It's still a work in progress, though.
- jhayward 7y ago
  This mis-states how electrical generation markets work and relies on the fallacy of "baseload", which is an artifact created by the past-grid domination of large thermal plants for generation. In my market (Texas/ERCOT) there is no separate market for "firm" power. You either run or you don't on an every-15-minutes basis. You are either a price "taker", or a price "maker". In this market the NPPs are always, always, price "takers". They absolutely compete with the price makers, which are always either wind, solar, or most commonly, natural gas. Coal is always a price "taker" in this market as well. Whether a generator is a "taker" or "maker" in terms of pricing is a function of the economic impact to it of not running in a given bid segment, and its ability to compete in the bidding for the "last MW" of the bid-price stack. Large thermal plants like NPPs rely very much on the economics of being able to get premium pricing for every single minute of the day and night. In a competetive market they can't do that, because gas/wind/solar can under-price them by very large margins. So the NPPs become un-economic to run (if already running), and very much un-fundable to build as new capacity. The same market force applies to coal.
  - scott_s 7y ago
    Your rationale does not address the core argument of the piece, which is that as reliance on intermittent energy sources approaches 100%, their cost will rise steeply.
WAHa_06x36 7y ago
Unfortunately, in practice nuclear does still compete against coal. It would be wonderful if the choice was between nuclear and renewables, but that is not yet where we are. Nuclear is still the lesser of the two evils compared to coal and oil, which are very much the only other option in many cases.

bsaul 7y ago

Then why do i keep hearing that germany has been producing a lot more pollution since they stopped nuclear power because of coal and gaz being used as a subsitute source of energy ?

cygx 7y ago
No idea why you keep hearing that: Failure to meet your reduction goals does not equate an increase in pollution. https://www.umweltbundesamt.de/sites/default/files/medien/384/bilder/5_abb_trend-emi_2019.png https://www.umweltbundesamt.de/sites/default/files/medien/38...
brazzy 7y ago
Because people are misrepresenting facts (aka. lying) Germany did not stop using nuclear power, it started phasing it out (which had actually been planned long before Fukushima), and has not been producing more pollution because it has in fact been replacing coal and gas as well as nuclear with renewable sources: https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/germanys-energy-consumption-and-power-mix-charts https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/germanys-energy-c...
- cygx 7y ago
  Germany has actually slightly increased its gas usage - though compared to other energy sources, its currently more of a rounding error in magnitude: 2002 2018 Total 503 545 Coal+Oil 253 205 Nuclear 156 72 Gas 40 44 Biomass 4 45 Wind+Solar+Hydro 39 177 Other 10 3 https://www.energy-charts.de/energy.htm?source=all-sources&period=annual&year=all https://www.energy-charts.de/energy.htm?source=all-sources&p...
  - brazzy 7y ago
    More significantly, the increase in gas is more than offset by a decrease in coal and oil.
    - jhayward 7y ago
      Right. Quantitatively: Coal declined by 48 TWh Gas increased by 4 TWh. Nuclear declined by 84 TWh. Renewables picked up the slack by adding 130 TWh of generation.

coredog64 7y ago

Natural gas plants are frequently peak load plants: They’re expensive, but they’re cheaper than a brownout or blackout. Wind is intermittent. Solar is too (with the exception of solar thermal). Nuclear is, was, and always will be about base load the same as coal.

scott_s 7y ago

Nuclear power does not compete against wind and solar, as wind and solar are intermittent power sources. Nuclear is a firm energy source, in that we can use it to create steady-state power during periods that intermittent sources are not available. Coal is also a firm energy source, so coal and nuclear definitely compete. For more, "There is No One Energy Solution", https://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/there-is-no-one-energy-solution/ https://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/there-is-no-on...

cygx 7y ago
Once you combine them with storage and peakers, intermittent renewable sources do compete with other base load providers. It's still a work in progress, though.
jhayward 7y ago
This mis-states how electrical generation markets work and relies on the fallacy of "baseload", which is an artifact created by the past-grid domination of large thermal plants for generation. In my market (Texas/ERCOT) there is no separate market for "firm" power. You either run or you don't on an every-15-minutes basis. You are either a price "taker", or a price "maker". In this market the NPPs are always, always, price "takers". They absolutely compete with the price makers, which are always either wind, solar, or most commonly, natural gas. Coal is always a price "taker" in this market as well. Whether a generator is a "taker" or "maker" in terms of pricing is a function of the economic impact to it of not running in a given bid segment, and its ability to compete in the bidding for the "last MW" of the bid-price stack. Large thermal plants like NPPs rely very much on the economics of being able to get premium pricing for every single minute of the day and night. In a competetive market they can't do that, because gas/wind/solar can under-price them by very large margins. So the NPPs become un-economic to run (if already running), and very much un-fundable to build as new capacity. The same market force applies to coal.
- scott_s 7y ago
  Your rationale does not address the core argument of the piece, which is that as reliance on intermittent energy sources approaches 100%, their cost will rise steeply.

WAHa_06x36 7y ago

Unfortunately, in practice nuclear does still compete against coal. It would be wonderful if the choice was between nuclear and renewables, but that is not yet where we are. Nuclear is still the lesser of the two evils compared to coal and oil, which are very much the only other option in many cases.