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human vs human road interaction is mostly based on trust, and it usually works out because most humans are sane and healthy while driving. the same thing can n

human vs human road interaction is mostly based on trust, and it usually works out because most humans are sane and healthy while driving. the same thing can not work with machines cause they are bad at detecting when humans are not all right and humans are bad at trusting machines. as soon as we just accept that the save way to operate in close proximity of others, is to do it at way slower speeds. we will have very save roads with humans and robots behind the wheel.

ocdtrekkie 7y ago
Speed is not the issue, difference in speed is the issue. Road safety actually improves when you raise the speed limit to the speed most drivers are actually driving.
- AdamHede 7y ago
  This is only true in a very theoretical sense. Going 180 km/h will 9/10 be more dangerous than going 120 km/h. Reaktion time, brake time, requirements to equipment, everything is tougher at higher speeds.
  - zaroth 7y ago
    I’m pretty sure Autobahn fatality numbers disprove your thesis. The correct conclusion is that the safe speed directly depends on the present conditions, and depending on that, you can be going unsafely fast or unsafely slow (or both, if you’re drunk or inattentive).
    - Tade0 7y ago
      Actually, British motorways are much safer than German autobahns: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thelocal.de/20190201/are-germanys-autobahns-really-the-safest-highways-in-the-world/amp https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thelocal.de/20190201/are-ge...
  - dsfyu404ed 7y ago
    If by "theoretical sense" you mean "doesn't fit your personal world view" then sure. The safest speed limit being one that the overwhelming majority of people would naturally follow were it not posted is basically considered fact in the civil engineering world. There is study upon study backing it up. The desire to minimize the speed at which crashes happen literally costs lives when applied in the real world because reducing the frequency of crashes is the superior option.
    - SketchySeaBeast 7y ago
      > The desire to minimize the speed at which crashes happen literally costs lives when applied in the real world because reducing the frequency of crashes is the superior option. While I understand that minimizing crashes is important, I'd rather be faced with scenarios where we crash in a manner where people survive more often - any accidents that do happen at the higher speed is going to skyrocket the chances of a fatality.
    - magduf 7y ago
      >The safest speed limit being one that the overwhelming majority of people would naturally follow were it not posted is basically considered fact in the civil engineering world. There is study upon study backing it up. It's too bad the civil engineers working as traffic engineers absolutely refuse to actually follow the recommendations of these studies. Honestly, I can't think of a more intellectually dishonest profession than civil engineering (specifically, the traffic engineering subset of it; the guys who build buildings and bridges are OK).
- jchanimal 7y ago
  Road safety on the highway is a rhetorical trap. Who cares how insane it is there? Just please drive human speed when you are on surface streets.
- _nosaj 7y ago
  This makes a lot of sense intuitively as vehicles moving at the same speed will mean fewer variables for a human driver to worry about. Although it must have its limits. Do you remember where you saw the data on this?
  - ocdtrekkie 7y ago
    Look up the "85th percentile rule". Traffic engineers actually generally aim to set the speed limit at the speed 85% of drivers are at or under. Sometimes politicians get in the way. For instance, it was requested to raise the speed limits above 55 mph in Chicagoland area highways, and the change was refused, even though the average driving speed on those roads is about 70 already anyways. Here's a good explanation: http://www.mikeontraffic.com/85th-percentile-speed-explained/ http://www.mikeontraffic.com/85th-percentile-speed-explained...
- your-nanny 7y ago
  I'm sorry, but no. Yes, important all going same speed, but all else equal slower = safer. more time to react to unexpected events. better traction to road. less energy in a crash.
  - drawnwren 7y ago
    Weigh all of that against the angry person late for work driving 3ft off of the bumper of the car in front of them because they feel like they can go faster.
  - 0xfeba 7y ago
    Yes, but unless all cars have speed limiters in them at those speeds, the drivers go faster regardless.
    - your-nanny 7y ago
      the context here was discussion of auto pilot, so irrelevant. but nonetheless, a lack of a speed limit does not imply uniformity of speeds traveled. some will go as fast as traffic and their vehicles allow them. others only as fast as they feel safe. others get adrenalin and dopamine hits from passing and weaving in and around other vehicles. I was driving 90+ moh and still got rear ended by someone going 100+ in Alabama.
      - ocdtrekkie 7y ago
        Most people do not drive according to the speed limit, they drive according to the overall feel of the road and the safety of traveling on it. Wider roads with high visibility and gentle curves will naturally lead people to drive faster. Basically, you set the speed limit at the speed most of those drivers are already naturally driving at, so that the people who do mind the speed limit will travel at the same speed of travel as everyone else. And then, of course, obviously there will be outliers.
- bryanlarsen 7y ago
  "Road safety actually improves when you raise the speed limit to the speed most drivers are actually driving." Number of accidents drop, but the number of fatalities increase when you raise the speed limit because the accidents that do happen have so much more energy in them (e=mv^2). So "safety" only improves if you have a bad definition of safety.

ocdtrekkie 7y ago

Speed is not the issue, difference in speed is the issue. Road safety actually improves when you raise the speed limit to the speed most drivers are actually driving.

AdamHede 7y ago
This is only true in a very theoretical sense. Going 180 km/h will 9/10 be more dangerous than going 120 km/h. Reaktion time, brake time, requirements to equipment, everything is tougher at higher speeds.
- zaroth 7y ago
  I’m pretty sure Autobahn fatality numbers disprove your thesis. The correct conclusion is that the safe speed directly depends on the present conditions, and depending on that, you can be going unsafely fast or unsafely slow (or both, if you’re drunk or inattentive).
  - Tade0 7y ago
    Actually, British motorways are much safer than German autobahns: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thelocal.de/20190201/are-germanys-autobahns-really-the-safest-highways-in-the-world/amp https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thelocal.de/20190201/are-ge...
- dsfyu404ed 7y ago
  If by "theoretical sense" you mean "doesn't fit your personal world view" then sure. The safest speed limit being one that the overwhelming majority of people would naturally follow were it not posted is basically considered fact in the civil engineering world. There is study upon study backing it up. The desire to minimize the speed at which crashes happen literally costs lives when applied in the real world because reducing the frequency of crashes is the superior option.
  - SketchySeaBeast 7y ago
    > The desire to minimize the speed at which crashes happen literally costs lives when applied in the real world because reducing the frequency of crashes is the superior option. While I understand that minimizing crashes is important, I'd rather be faced with scenarios where we crash in a manner where people survive more often - any accidents that do happen at the higher speed is going to skyrocket the chances of a fatality.
  - magduf 7y ago
    >The safest speed limit being one that the overwhelming majority of people would naturally follow were it not posted is basically considered fact in the civil engineering world. There is study upon study backing it up. It's too bad the civil engineers working as traffic engineers absolutely refuse to actually follow the recommendations of these studies. Honestly, I can't think of a more intellectually dishonest profession than civil engineering (specifically, the traffic engineering subset of it; the guys who build buildings and bridges are OK).
jchanimal 7y ago
Road safety on the highway is a rhetorical trap. Who cares how insane it is there? Just please drive human speed when you are on surface streets.
_nosaj 7y ago
This makes a lot of sense intuitively as vehicles moving at the same speed will mean fewer variables for a human driver to worry about. Although it must have its limits. Do you remember where you saw the data on this?
- ocdtrekkie 7y ago
  Look up the "85th percentile rule". Traffic engineers actually generally aim to set the speed limit at the speed 85% of drivers are at or under. Sometimes politicians get in the way. For instance, it was requested to raise the speed limits above 55 mph in Chicagoland area highways, and the change was refused, even though the average driving speed on those roads is about 70 already anyways. Here's a good explanation: http://www.mikeontraffic.com/85th-percentile-speed-explained/ http://www.mikeontraffic.com/85th-percentile-speed-explained...
your-nanny 7y ago
I'm sorry, but no. Yes, important all going same speed, but all else equal slower = safer. more time to react to unexpected events. better traction to road. less energy in a crash.
- drawnwren 7y ago
  Weigh all of that against the angry person late for work driving 3ft off of the bumper of the car in front of them because they feel like they can go faster.
- 0xfeba 7y ago
  Yes, but unless all cars have speed limiters in them at those speeds, the drivers go faster regardless.
  - your-nanny 7y ago
    the context here was discussion of auto pilot, so irrelevant. but nonetheless, a lack of a speed limit does not imply uniformity of speeds traveled. some will go as fast as traffic and their vehicles allow them. others only as fast as they feel safe. others get adrenalin and dopamine hits from passing and weaving in and around other vehicles. I was driving 90+ moh and still got rear ended by someone going 100+ in Alabama.
    - ocdtrekkie 7y ago
      Most people do not drive according to the speed limit, they drive according to the overall feel of the road and the safety of traveling on it. Wider roads with high visibility and gentle curves will naturally lead people to drive faster. Basically, you set the speed limit at the speed most of those drivers are already naturally driving at, so that the people who do mind the speed limit will travel at the same speed of travel as everyone else. And then, of course, obviously there will be outliers.
bryanlarsen 7y ago
"Road safety actually improves when you raise the speed limit to the speed most drivers are actually driving." Number of accidents drop, but the number of fatalities increase when you raise the speed limit because the accidents that do happen have so much more energy in them (e=mv^2). So "safety" only improves if you have a bad definition of safety.