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On a bit of a tangent, I have thought that the abortion debate ignores paternal responsibility. I don’t want to get into a debate about abortion (I am in favour

by Gatsky 7y ago

On a bit of a tangent, I have thought that the abortion debate ignores paternal responsibility. I don’t want to get into a debate about abortion (I am in favour), but logically if abortion is outlawed then a father abandoning their child should also be outlawed. Someone can father a child and then disappear without too many consequences, certainly without having to make difficult decisions or undergo a surgical procedure or raise a child for the next 20+ years. It strikes me however that it is impossible to force fathers to take responsibility. Needing to make child support payments is hardly enough. Abortion is in a way a compensating for this differential responsibility. It seems that women are blamed for getting pregnant and then vilified for wanting an abortion, but the father is not mentioned at all.

Guthur 7y ago
Of course bad fathers are mentioned. Bad male behavior is called out all the time usually with adjectives such as toxic, aggressive or predatory. And in many cases the default is to assume a man is bad and then wait to see if it's otherwise. I'm pretty sure it as default policy on one UK airline to never have an unaccompanied minor next to a male passenger.
- Gatsky 7y ago
  My comment was in the context of abortion.
kgwgk 7y ago
> Someone can father a child and then disappear without too many consequences Can’t mothers do the same? (Once the child is born, obviously.)
- belorn 7y ago
  Naturally they can but as a society we don't like to talk about it. It a bit like men who don't want to work to support themselves and others. Anyone at the bottom of the social hierarchy is culturally ignored and abandoning a child as a mother is not a winning strategy for social status.
- a-saleh 7y ago
  You could consider the "Can run before the child is born" quite an advantage when trying to get rid of the responsibility of being a parent.
  - kgwgk 7y ago
    The man can run away but cannot really eliminate the legal responsibility. The woman, however, can do it before and (unless there is opposition from the father) after the birth.
    - a-saleh 7y ago
      Before the birth? Within limits, yes, isn't that the whole reason for having abortion legal? After the birth, I am not sure how would that work.
      - a-saleh 7y ago
        Ok, just remembered baby-boxes exist :)
      - kgwgk 7y ago
        The point is that a woman can abort, a man cannot kill the unborn baby under any circumstances nor renege of it. And giving babies for adoption is a thing, and not just in an anonymous “drop it somewhere where they will take care of it” sense.
tomp 7y ago
Au contraire, fathers don't have an option of relinquishing responsibility of having a child (at any time after conception). They have to pay child support, or face jail time! Not only do women have access to abortion, but they can also (AFAIK in many states/countries) give up the child for adoption (in which case they also don't need to pay child support, as the taxpayers/adoptive parents cover the child's costs). I support abortion, but I also support "financial abortion" for unwilling fathers (same as currently exists for sperm donnors).
- skissane 7y ago
  > but they can also (AFAIK in many states/countries) give up the child for adoption (in which case they also don't need to pay child support, as the taxpayers/adoptive parents cover the child's costs). In most jurisdictions, giving a child up for adoption legally requires the consent of both biological parents; it is not something the birth mother can do unilaterally. (Courts do have the power to override the requirement for consent of either or both parents; but, they have to give each parent the opportunity to be heard in court first.) So, when it comes to adoption, the position of the mother and the father are more parallel than you present it as.
  - tomp 7y ago
    I'm not a lawyer and only did a bit of research in this topic, but I found out about things like "baby boxes" that allow mothers to relinquish newborns anonymously. On the other hand, this US website [1] suggests that fathers do have a right to assume the father figure (so you're right), although their rights are still lesser than a mother's ("Most states require a birth father to provide financial support to the pregnant mother, and failure to do so may result in the birth father being unable to stop an adoption."). Although I wonder if in the case where the father assumes custody, the mother (who wanted to give up the child for abortion) would be required to pay child support or not (the website suggests "no", but isn't very explicit on this topic). [1] https://www.americanadoptions.com/pregnant/birth_father_isnt_supportive https://www.americanadoptions.com/pregnant/birth_father_isnt...
    - 7y ago
wtdata 7y ago
> if abortion is outlawed then a father abandoning their child should also be outlawed Men are forced to pay child support. Either if they want the child or not. Woman in almost every state, can choose to abort if they don't want to raise the child or at least monetarily support it. Men have no choice.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- Gatsky 7y ago
  Suggest that you look at the statistics: https://www.verywellfamily.com/us-child-support-statistics-2997994 https://www.verywellfamily.com/us-child-support-statistics-2... Think about how it actually works in reality, and it is obvious women are at a disadvantage. Toy example: man hurts back, can’t work, can’t pay support. Woman hurts back, still has to look after child and work. Also, if you read my comment and the original article, support payments are obviously not a substitute for actual parenting.

by Gatsky 7y ago

Guthur 7y ago

Of course bad fathers are mentioned. Bad male behavior is called out all the time usually with adjectives such as toxic, aggressive or predatory. And in many cases the default is to assume a man is bad and then wait to see if it's otherwise. I'm pretty sure it as default policy on one UK airline to never have an unaccompanied minor next to a male passenger.

Gatsky 7y ago
My comment was in the context of abortion.

kgwgk 7y ago

> Someone can father a child and then disappear without too many consequences Can’t mothers do the same? (Once the child is born, obviously.)

belorn 7y ago
Naturally they can but as a society we don't like to talk about it. It a bit like men who don't want to work to support themselves and others. Anyone at the bottom of the social hierarchy is culturally ignored and abandoning a child as a mother is not a winning strategy for social status.
a-saleh 7y ago
You could consider the "Can run before the child is born" quite an advantage when trying to get rid of the responsibility of being a parent.
- kgwgk 7y ago
  The man can run away but cannot really eliminate the legal responsibility. The woman, however, can do it before and (unless there is opposition from the father) after the birth.
  - a-saleh 7y ago
    Before the birth? Within limits, yes, isn't that the whole reason for having abortion legal? After the birth, I am not sure how would that work.
    - a-saleh 7y ago
      Ok, just remembered baby-boxes exist :)
    - kgwgk 7y ago
      The point is that a woman can abort, a man cannot kill the unborn baby under any circumstances nor renege of it. And giving babies for adoption is a thing, and not just in an anonymous “drop it somewhere where they will take care of it” sense.

tomp 7y ago

Au contraire, fathers don't have an option of relinquishing responsibility of having a child (at any time after conception). They have to pay child support, or face jail time! Not only do women have access to abortion, but they can also (AFAIK in many states/countries) give up the child for adoption (in which case they also don't need to pay child support, as the taxpayers/adoptive parents cover the child's costs). I support abortion, but I also support "financial abortion" for unwilling fathers (same as currently exists for sperm donnors).

skissane 7y ago
> but they can also (AFAIK in many states/countries) give up the child for adoption (in which case they also don't need to pay child support, as the taxpayers/adoptive parents cover the child's costs). In most jurisdictions, giving a child up for adoption legally requires the consent of both biological parents; it is not something the birth mother can do unilaterally. (Courts do have the power to override the requirement for consent of either or both parents; but, they have to give each parent the opportunity to be heard in court first.) So, when it comes to adoption, the position of the mother and the father are more parallel than you present it as.
- tomp 7y ago
  I'm not a lawyer and only did a bit of research in this topic, but I found out about things like "baby boxes" that allow mothers to relinquish newborns anonymously. On the other hand, this US website [1] suggests that fathers do have a right to assume the father figure (so you're right), although their rights are still lesser than a mother's ("Most states require a birth father to provide financial support to the pregnant mother, and failure to do so may result in the birth father being unable to stop an adoption."). Although I wonder if in the case where the father assumes custody, the mother (who wanted to give up the child for abortion) would be required to pay child support or not (the website suggests "no", but isn't very explicit on this topic). [1] https://www.americanadoptions.com/pregnant/birth_father_isnt_supportive https://www.americanadoptions.com/pregnant/birth_father_isnt...
  - 7y ago

wtdata 7y ago

> if abortion is outlawed then a father abandoning their child should also be outlawed Men are forced to pay child support. Either if they want the child or not. Woman in almost every state, can choose to abort if they don't want to raise the child or at least monetarily support it. Men have no choice.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
Gatsky 7y ago
Suggest that you look at the statistics: https://www.verywellfamily.com/us-child-support-statistics-2997994 https://www.verywellfamily.com/us-child-support-statistics-2... Think about how it actually works in reality, and it is obvious women are at a disadvantage. Toy example: man hurts back, can’t work, can’t pay support. Woman hurts back, still has to look after child and work. Also, if you read my comment and the original article, support payments are obviously not a substitute for actual parenting.