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Lets not forget WSL. I just got the WSL2 upgrade - it turns a Windows 10 desktop into a quite decent software developer workstation. Seriously guys, if the las

Lets not forget WSL. I just got the WSL2 upgrade - it turns a Windows 10 desktop into a quite decent software developer workstation. Seriously guys, if the last time you used Windows was a few years ago it is time to give it a another shot.

de_watcher 7y ago
> Seriously guys, if the last time you used Windows was a few years ago it is time to give it a another shot. What's the point? They do it all the time when things start going bad. It'll turn to garbage as soon as they have enough of mindshare. Why be among the ones who run back and forth?
earenndil 7y ago
The last time I used windows was last week. It's still awful.
feanaro 7y ago
Isn't the surveillance/telemetry problem still as much of a problem as it was on day zero? As far as I know, it hasn't been removed nor lessened. As far as I remember, it is absolutely overreaching, collecting your name, email address, browsing history, searches, application usage and more. Microsoft also keeps a copy of your full-disk encryption key. <https://theintercept.com/2015/12/28/recently-bought-a-windows-computer-microsoft-probably-has-your-encryption-key/> https://theintercept.com/2015/12/28/recently-bought-a-window...
- mehrdadn 7y ago
  > As far as I know, it hasn't been removed nor lessened. IIRC they lessened it by some ε > 0 in 1803. [1] > As far as I remember, it is absolutely overreaching, collecting your name, email address, browsing history, searches, application usage and more. Some of these seem more alarming than others. Where are each of these pulled from? If you have a Microsoft account they already have your name and address. Most people use Chrome and I assume Windows isn't sending that info to Microsoft (although this does make me worry for those who use IE/Edge). Searches and application usage I haven't heard explicitly but those would worry me more. > Microsoft also keeps a copy of your full-disk encryption key. Wasn't this only when you had a Microsoft account or something? We can debate how they shove MSAs down users' throat (I want to punch my computer when they do that too), but as far as the FDE key is concerned, I feel like those who don't want this also wouldn't want to use a Microsoft account for their logins to begin with? [1] https://windowsreport.com/windows-10-v1803-privacy/ https://windowsreport.com/windows-10-v1803-privacy/
  - feanaro 7y ago
    I'm not sure of the details anymore, I was going by my memory. But to respond to your overall point, there are probably hacks around each of the things I've mentioned, but the point is that I don't feel like using an OS that does these things is a reasonable alternative for me. Particularly because who knows what other kinds of aggressive changes are being concocted for the future. I try to make this point to my family and friends too and they seem to agree. Thanks for the link though, I'll take a look.
  - AlphaWeaver 7y ago
    I'm almost entirely certain that the storing the Bit locker FDE key in your Microsoft account is an optional choice presented during the BitLocker setup.
    - minedwiz 7y ago
      It definitely is. It’s not even very prominent - you have to intentionally click on it.
    - peteri 7y ago
      Recently due to a firmware upgrade losing the key I had to do the disable/enable dance for Bitlocker and you need to store the key somewhere removeable (usb stick etc) which is enough of pain I just went for a Microsoft account. You can remove them easily enough from a Microsoft account.
- Dirlewanger 7y ago
  Yup, and all the Turn Off Telemetry toggles are all placebos. I think the only solace one can find from constant phoning home is with the LTSC version of Windows 10, but Microsoft makes it very inaccessible to a home user. There's also a few custom installers/scripts that people have written to disable the telemetry via PowerShell that are floating around, but I think their up-to-date-ness varies from author to author.
worble 7y ago
If the WSL is the only reason windows is a decent development workstation, then why not just use Linux in the first place? What unique factor is Windows offering here?
- ulucs 7y ago
  Being able to run two OS'es at the same time seamlessly is pretty cool. Many programs I use are either Windows or Linux exclusive so it saves me a lot of time rebooting compared to double-booting.
  - xorcist 7y ago
    It was a long time ago I had reason to start Windows specific software, but even back then wine did a really good job. It even had functionality for things like running IE versions in parallel, good for the frontenders in the team. And development hasn't slowed down since then.
- hyperbovine 7y ago
  In a word, drivers. We’ve come a long way since the dark days of the 90s, but hardware support on Linux still lags far, far behind Windows. This shows up in all sorts of ways on a daily basis. Graphics drivers, I’m looking at you Nvidia, are noticeably buggier and slower. Lots of little random errors crop up that are simply unfixable because the hardware mfr isn’t interested. Example: My USB controller resets itself every 15m for some reason. And good luck getting sleep/hibernate to function correctly unless you went out of your way to choose a hardware combination that is known to properly handle PM on Linux (I’m talking every peripheral here). For server-class stuff you’re generally in good shape but desktop Linux is still mostly an afterthought.
  - bjpbakker 7y ago
    > you went out of your way to choose a hardware combination that is known to properly handle PM on Linux This is no different than with windows. Except that more vendors sell you windows compatible pre-built systems. With macos the situation is far worse. If you want more Linux enables hardware it will help to vote with your wallet and buy hardware from manufacturers that do provide support for Linux.
xorcist 7y ago
Sure, all you have to do is install some extra software and then it's almost passable as a decent Linux. It's not a great selling point. Not everyone thinks it's productive to switch operating systems once in a while.
juststeve 7y ago
but, why? I use Windows 10 and Server all the time and I hate it.

de_watcher 7y ago

> Seriously guys, if the last time you used Windows was a few years ago it is time to give it a another shot. What's the point? They do it all the time when things start going bad. It'll turn to garbage as soon as they have enough of mindshare. Why be among the ones who run back and forth?

earenndil 7y ago

The last time I used windows was last week. It's still awful.

feanaro 7y ago

Isn't the surveillance/telemetry problem still as much of a problem as it was on day zero? As far as I know, it hasn't been removed nor lessened. As far as I remember, it is absolutely overreaching, collecting your name, email address, browsing history, searches, application usage and more. Microsoft also keeps a copy of your full-disk encryption key. <https://theintercept.com/2015/12/28/recently-bought-a-windows-computer-microsoft-probably-has-your-encryption-key/> https://theintercept.com/2015/12/28/recently-bought-a-window...

mehrdadn 7y ago
> As far as I know, it hasn't been removed nor lessened. IIRC they lessened it by some ε > 0 in 1803. [1] > As far as I remember, it is absolutely overreaching, collecting your name, email address, browsing history, searches, application usage and more. Some of these seem more alarming than others. Where are each of these pulled from? If you have a Microsoft account they already have your name and address. Most people use Chrome and I assume Windows isn't sending that info to Microsoft (although this does make me worry for those who use IE/Edge). Searches and application usage I haven't heard explicitly but those would worry me more. > Microsoft also keeps a copy of your full-disk encryption key. Wasn't this only when you had a Microsoft account or something? We can debate how they shove MSAs down users' throat (I want to punch my computer when they do that too), but as far as the FDE key is concerned, I feel like those who don't want this also wouldn't want to use a Microsoft account for their logins to begin with? [1] https://windowsreport.com/windows-10-v1803-privacy/ https://windowsreport.com/windows-10-v1803-privacy/
- feanaro 7y ago
  I'm not sure of the details anymore, I was going by my memory. But to respond to your overall point, there are probably hacks around each of the things I've mentioned, but the point is that I don't feel like using an OS that does these things is a reasonable alternative for me. Particularly because who knows what other kinds of aggressive changes are being concocted for the future. I try to make this point to my family and friends too and they seem to agree. Thanks for the link though, I'll take a look.
- AlphaWeaver 7y ago
  I'm almost entirely certain that the storing the Bit locker FDE key in your Microsoft account is an optional choice presented during the BitLocker setup.
  - minedwiz 7y ago
    It definitely is. It’s not even very prominent - you have to intentionally click on it.
  - peteri 7y ago
    Recently due to a firmware upgrade losing the key I had to do the disable/enable dance for Bitlocker and you need to store the key somewhere removeable (usb stick etc) which is enough of pain I just went for a Microsoft account. You can remove them easily enough from a Microsoft account.
Dirlewanger 7y ago
Yup, and all the Turn Off Telemetry toggles are all placebos. I think the only solace one can find from constant phoning home is with the LTSC version of Windows 10, but Microsoft makes it very inaccessible to a home user. There's also a few custom installers/scripts that people have written to disable the telemetry via PowerShell that are floating around, but I think their up-to-date-ness varies from author to author.

worble 7y ago

If the WSL is the only reason windows is a decent development workstation, then why not just use Linux in the first place? What unique factor is Windows offering here?

ulucs 7y ago
Being able to run two OS'es at the same time seamlessly is pretty cool. Many programs I use are either Windows or Linux exclusive so it saves me a lot of time rebooting compared to double-booting.
- xorcist 7y ago
  It was a long time ago I had reason to start Windows specific software, but even back then wine did a really good job. It even had functionality for things like running IE versions in parallel, good for the frontenders in the team. And development hasn't slowed down since then.
hyperbovine 7y ago
In a word, drivers. We’ve come a long way since the dark days of the 90s, but hardware support on Linux still lags far, far behind Windows. This shows up in all sorts of ways on a daily basis. Graphics drivers, I’m looking at you Nvidia, are noticeably buggier and slower. Lots of little random errors crop up that are simply unfixable because the hardware mfr isn’t interested. Example: My USB controller resets itself every 15m for some reason. And good luck getting sleep/hibernate to function correctly unless you went out of your way to choose a hardware combination that is known to properly handle PM on Linux (I’m talking every peripheral here). For server-class stuff you’re generally in good shape but desktop Linux is still mostly an afterthought.
- bjpbakker 7y ago
  > you went out of your way to choose a hardware combination that is known to properly handle PM on Linux This is no different than with windows. Except that more vendors sell you windows compatible pre-built systems. With macos the situation is far worse. If you want more Linux enables hardware it will help to vote with your wallet and buy hardware from manufacturers that do provide support for Linux.

xorcist 7y ago

Sure, all you have to do is install some extra software and then it's almost passable as a decent Linux. It's not a great selling point. Not everyone thinks it's productive to switch operating systems once in a while.

juststeve 7y ago

but, why? I use Windows 10 and Server all the time and I hate it.