4 ms·

Cool. Is there a non-WebExtensions XUL version for us Pale Moon users?

by Endy 7y ago

canistel 7y ago
I don't think there is an updated one. For the brief period when I had used Basilisk, I used an old version of uBlock Origin (downloaded from the Mozilla website).
michaelmrose 7y ago
Pale moon is a bad product made by horrendous individuals. For the technical reasons read https://www.howtogeek.com/335712/update-why-you-shouldnt-use-waterfox-pale-moon-or-basilisk/ https://www.howtogeek.com/335712/update-why-you-shouldnt-use... For the interpersonal reasons please see the lead developer acting like a spoiled child here. https://github.com/jasperla/openbsd-wip/issues/86 https://github.com/jasperla/openbsd-wip/issues/86 Friends don't let friends use a crappy, out of date, insecure, janky browser.
- jversd673 7y ago
  No, Pale moon is not bad product at all, as for the horrendous individuals, well that's wrong too. >For the technical reasons read https://forum.palemoon.org/viewtopic.php?p=135424#p135424 https://forum.palemoon.org/viewtopic.php?p=135424#p135424 >For the interpersonal reasons please see the lead developer acting like a spoiled child here. (btw mattatobin is not a lead developer, get your fact straight please) https://forum.palemoon.org/viewtopic.php?p=134236#p134236 https://forum.palemoon.org/viewtopic.php?p=134236#p134236 >Friends don't let friends use a crappy, out of date, insecure, janky browser. https://forum.palemoon.org/viewtopic.php?t=21626 https://forum.palemoon.org/viewtopic.php?t=21626 https://forum.palemoon.org/viewtopic.php?p=168679#p168679 https://forum.palemoon.org/viewtopic.php?p=168679#p168679
  - michaelmrose 7y ago
    A set of instructions that would allow the end user to build something cannot be subject to any copyright license insofar as it doesn't actually contain the software that is bound by said license. The unofficial patches are presumably by definition not copyright the project considering they are written by a third party. This is kind of how multiple source based packages work. Nothing is being distributed by the repo save instructions the end user does the fetching and building. Normally people do a small amount of research before attacking volunteers who are providing free labor to make their package more broadly available. An example dialog could have been opened like so. "We at the Pale Moon project prefer that distributions package as close as possible to the default experience to ensure that all users have the same experience and aid in troubleshooting. Can we talk about the patches that are being distributed with Pale Moon to see if they are really needed for our product to work on your OS?" If no agreement can ultimately be reached respectfully ask for it not to be distributed but use the know how generated to add a forum post "Building on OpenBSD" not burning any bridges AND actually profiting from the experience. Instead Pale Moon devs appear to have learned nothing from the interaction. I've noticed that you didn't bother to address the technical reasons whatsoever. Your browser is probably the best vector into your system and malware no longer just screws up your system. It's now common for malware to encrypt your files and hold them for ransom. In effect an out of date firefox means that malware authors can use up to date firefox's security fixes to target users using old software that perforce is vulnerable to the same attacks. This needn't be specifically targeted at JUST palemoon users. All users of out of date firefox represent a possible victim pool with attractively low security.
    - jversd673 7y ago
      > I've noticed that you didn't bother to address the technical reasons whatsoever. It's right there, bellow the "crappy, out of date, insecure, janky browser" unfounded claims, open the two links I've provided and you'll see that ALL the technical reasons are covered extensively.
- Endy 7y ago
  I agree with their technical choices, and I both understand and agree with their BSD position.
- LordLestat 7y ago
  I rather would use Pale Moon before i would touch Mozilla Firefox - Mozilla which killed almost all customization options just to be able to be as attractive to Chrome users as possible. In fact, i also would use Vivaldi every day over Firefox. Mozilla has turned into a greedy sell-out developer with zero respect for power- or geek users!
  - michaelmrose 7y ago
    The problem with this narrative is that it is entirely fictional. The web extensions addons that have replaced the old style are just as featureful and Mozilla has done a good job of providing the functionality to build powerful addons. Example Pentadactyl -> Tridactyl, noscript, ublock origin, stylus. I'm not clear where you are coming from with the "greedy" accusation nor where you get off calling them sell outs. Based on what? Your refrains betray "reduced to 180 characters" level of understanding of the matter and I strongly suggest you gain a more complete understanding of technical and business matters before attacking people who are producing so much value for the open source community.
sjwright 7y ago
I would strongly advise not using Pale Moon—for numerous reasons specific to that particular distribution (which aren't interesting enough to repeat here) but mostly for reasons that apply to all minor web browser projects; particularly ones based off old code: — How quickly will serious vulnerabilities be patched? Given the project is so small, I wouldn't trust their future response to be rapid even if they have been in the past. Right now most security fixes come in the form of merging upstream security fixes from Mozilla. As their code base becomes increasingly divergent to the Firefox head, merging in upstream security fixes will become increasingly difficult and increasingly cumbersome. — How much do you really trust these developers? I don't think many people realise just how important your browser is when it comes to trust. When you access online banking, your browser is in ultimate control of the entire trust chain. Your browser validates the security certificates. Your browser decides what to do with the passwords you enter. Your browser decides what to show you in the address bar. — What's wrong with Firefox 67+ anyway? The one thing everyone seems to cite when they say they use Pale Moon or Waterfox is that they still support the older extension system. The reality is all important extensions were unaffected. And while some genuinely useful extensions were lost in the transition (e.g. DownThemAll) most should be standalone applications anyway.
- Endy 7y ago
  I have found that, as much as Moonchild & Tobin can be difficult, I trust their judgment far more than I do Mozilla's. I want to be in control of my browser, I want to determine what gets downloaded and uploaded from my PC. They tend to be on that side. Also, my problems with the browser product itself are simple: the UI is awful and cannot be meaningfully fixed, and multi-process programs cause my computer to hang (so I set up a script to auto kill them). Pale Moon respects me as a User, not as an ad profile for Google.
  - sjwright 7y ago
    Each to their own. I would never trust the judgement of the most important piece of software on my computer to a small group of tinkerers maintaining a fork of someone else's massively complicated and deeply outdated source code. I don't care who they are—if they don't have a big enough reputation on the line, there's no reason to trust them. I'm sure your cousin is super trustworthy, but that doesn't mean anyone should put him in charge of the armoured vehicles division of a bank. Besides, it's a lot easier for a microscopically small and individualistic outfit like Pale Moon to never disappoint you compared to a large, managed entity like Mozilla which has disclosure policies and hundreds of employees each with their own priorities and agenda.
XzetaU8 7y ago
Yes https://github.com/gorhill/uBlock/releases/tag/firefox-legacy-1.16.4.11 https://github.com/gorhill/uBlock/releases/tag/firefox-legac... and here's the uBlock Origin Updater https://addons.palemoon.org/addon/ublock0-updater/ https://addons.palemoon.org/addon/ublock0-updater/

Cool. Is there a non-WebExtensions XUL version for us Pale Moon users?

by Endy 7y ago

Cool. Is there a non-WebExtensions XUL version for us Pale Moon users?

I don't think there is an updated one. For the brief period when I had used Basilisk, I used an old version of uBlock Origin (downloaded from the Mozilla website).

michaelmrose 7y ago

Pale moon is a bad product made by horrendous individuals. For the technical reasons read https://www.howtogeek.com/335712/update-why-you-shouldnt-use-waterfox-pale-moon-or-basilisk/ https://www.howtogeek.com/335712/update-why-you-shouldnt-use... For the interpersonal reasons please see the lead developer acting like a spoiled child here. https://github.com/jasperla/openbsd-wip/issues/86 https://github.com/jasperla/openbsd-wip/issues/86 Friends don't let friends use a crappy, out of date, insecure, janky browser.

jversd673 7y ago
No, Pale moon is not bad product at all, as for the horrendous individuals, well that's wrong too. >For the technical reasons read https://forum.palemoon.org/viewtopic.php?p=135424#p135424 https://forum.palemoon.org/viewtopic.php?p=135424#p135424 >For the interpersonal reasons please see the lead developer acting like a spoiled child here. (btw mattatobin is not a lead developer, get your fact straight please) https://forum.palemoon.org/viewtopic.php?p=134236#p134236 https://forum.palemoon.org/viewtopic.php?p=134236#p134236 >Friends don't let friends use a crappy, out of date, insecure, janky browser. https://forum.palemoon.org/viewtopic.php?t=21626 https://forum.palemoon.org/viewtopic.php?t=21626 https://forum.palemoon.org/viewtopic.php?p=168679#p168679 https://forum.palemoon.org/viewtopic.php?p=168679#p168679
- michaelmrose 7y ago
  A set of instructions that would allow the end user to build something cannot be subject to any copyright license insofar as it doesn't actually contain the software that is bound by said license. The unofficial patches are presumably by definition not copyright the project considering they are written by a third party. This is kind of how multiple source based packages work. Nothing is being distributed by the repo save instructions the end user does the fetching and building. Normally people do a small amount of research before attacking volunteers who are providing free labor to make their package more broadly available. An example dialog could have been opened like so. "We at the Pale Moon project prefer that distributions package as close as possible to the default experience to ensure that all users have the same experience and aid in troubleshooting. Can we talk about the patches that are being distributed with Pale Moon to see if they are really needed for our product to work on your OS?" If no agreement can ultimately be reached respectfully ask for it not to be distributed but use the know how generated to add a forum post "Building on OpenBSD" not burning any bridges AND actually profiting from the experience. Instead Pale Moon devs appear to have learned nothing from the interaction. I've noticed that you didn't bother to address the technical reasons whatsoever. Your browser is probably the best vector into your system and malware no longer just screws up your system. It's now common for malware to encrypt your files and hold them for ransom. In effect an out of date firefox means that malware authors can use up to date firefox's security fixes to target users using old software that perforce is vulnerable to the same attacks. This needn't be specifically targeted at JUST palemoon users. All users of out of date firefox represent a possible victim pool with attractively low security.
  - jversd673 7y ago
    > I've noticed that you didn't bother to address the technical reasons whatsoever. It's right there, bellow the "crappy, out of date, insecure, janky browser" unfounded claims, open the two links I've provided and you'll see that ALL the technical reasons are covered extensively.
Endy 7y ago
I agree with their technical choices, and I both understand and agree with their BSD position.
LordLestat 7y ago
I rather would use Pale Moon before i would touch Mozilla Firefox - Mozilla which killed almost all customization options just to be able to be as attractive to Chrome users as possible. In fact, i also would use Vivaldi every day over Firefox. Mozilla has turned into a greedy sell-out developer with zero respect for power- or geek users!
- michaelmrose 7y ago
  The problem with this narrative is that it is entirely fictional. The web extensions addons that have replaced the old style are just as featureful and Mozilla has done a good job of providing the functionality to build powerful addons. Example Pentadactyl -> Tridactyl, noscript, ublock origin, stylus. I'm not clear where you are coming from with the "greedy" accusation nor where you get off calling them sell outs. Based on what? Your refrains betray "reduced to 180 characters" level of understanding of the matter and I strongly suggest you gain a more complete understanding of technical and business matters before attacking people who are producing so much value for the open source community.

sjwright 7y ago

I would strongly advise not using Pale Moon—for numerous reasons specific to that particular distribution (which aren't interesting enough to repeat here) but mostly for reasons that apply to all minor web browser projects; particularly ones based off old code: — How quickly will serious vulnerabilities be patched? Given the project is so small, I wouldn't trust their future response to be rapid even if they have been in the past. Right now most security fixes come in the form of merging upstream security fixes from Mozilla. As their code base becomes increasingly divergent to the Firefox head, merging in upstream security fixes will become increasingly difficult and increasingly cumbersome. — How much do you really trust these developers? I don't think many people realise just how important your browser is when it comes to trust. When you access online banking, your browser is in ultimate control of the entire trust chain. Your browser validates the security certificates. Your browser decides what to do with the passwords you enter. Your browser decides what to show you in the address bar. — What's wrong with Firefox 67+ anyway? The one thing everyone seems to cite when they say they use Pale Moon or Waterfox is that they still support the older extension system. The reality is all important extensions were unaffected. And while some genuinely useful extensions were lost in the transition (e.g. DownThemAll) most should be standalone applications anyway.

Endy 7y ago
I have found that, as much as Moonchild & Tobin can be difficult, I trust their judgment far more than I do Mozilla's. I want to be in control of my browser, I want to determine what gets downloaded and uploaded from my PC. They tend to be on that side. Also, my problems with the browser product itself are simple: the UI is awful and cannot be meaningfully fixed, and multi-process programs cause my computer to hang (so I set up a script to auto kill them). Pale Moon respects me as a User, not as an ad profile for Google.
- sjwright 7y ago
  Each to their own. I would never trust the judgement of the most important piece of software on my computer to a small group of tinkerers maintaining a fork of someone else's massively complicated and deeply outdated source code. I don't care who they are—if they don't have a big enough reputation on the line, there's no reason to trust them. I'm sure your cousin is super trustworthy, but that doesn't mean anyone should put him in charge of the armoured vehicles division of a bank. Besides, it's a lot easier for a microscopically small and individualistic outfit like Pale Moon to never disappoint you compared to a large, managed entity like Mozilla which has disclosure policies and hundreds of employees each with their own priorities and agenda.

XzetaU8 7y ago

Yes https://github.com/gorhill/uBlock/releases/tag/firefox-legacy-1.16.4.11 https://github.com/gorhill/uBlock/releases/tag/firefox-legac... and here's the uBlock Origin Updater https://addons.palemoon.org/addon/ublock0-updater/ https://addons.palemoon.org/addon/ublock0-updater/