5 ms·

They are idealists, their parents and grandparents were not subjected to Cultural revolution and rest of the brutality of PRC. They think they can keep the city

by tlear 7y ago

They are idealists, their parents and grandparents were not subjected to Cultural revolution and rest of the brutality of PRC. They think they can keep the city they love as it is. Realistically their only hope is collapse of PRC. Never say never and who knows they might help it happen. I have quite a few classmates back from university (end of 90s start of 2000s) whose families saw writing on the wall, had enough $$ and got the fuck out while going was good.

JumpCrisscross 7y ago
> their only hope is collapse of PRC Not necessarily. A respectful and long-term oriented Beijing would be fine. (The CPC would need to change, to prevent a dictator-for-life like Xi from re-emerging.) There are a lot of win-win outcomes between the subjugation of Hong Kong and collapse of China.
- intrasight 7y ago
  Perhaps true in theory, but the practice of history says otherwise. Any anyway, it's not China that going to collapse, but the dictatorial regime.
  - whoevercares 7y ago
    Oh so China can survive a regime rotation without collapsing...sorry never happened once in China’s history
    - byw 7y ago
      Depends on how you define a regime. If we can be a bit wishy-washy, Deng rewrote the constitution from scratch and was essentially running it like a new regime, but still paid lip service to Mao to prevent mutiny. A similar change is not unthinkable if Hu/Wen/Li's liberal faction gets in power.
- mrobot 7y ago
  He's not dictator-for-life, they simply don't have term limits.
  - yladiz 7y ago
    In theory yes, but in reality he faces no opposition and so will always be "re-elected".
    - mrobot 7y ago
      Don't they have elections? Maybe the people want him there, then.
      - cm2012 7y ago
        Only high up party members vote in China. And the party controls the count.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
      - jklp 7y ago
        I'm not 100% across Chinese politics, but from what I understand the Politburo[1] (where the top leaders sit, including Xi) are voted in by the Central Committee [1]. But the Central Committee isn't really an independent body, and the people who sit there are selected by the Politburo - effectively the Politburo members just vote themselves in. (P.s. as mentioned I'm not 100% across the politics in China so happy to be corrected) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politburo_Standing_Committee_of_the_Communist_Party_of_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politburo_Standing_Committee_o... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Committee_of_the_Communist_Party_of_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Committee_of_the_Commu...
      - mrobot 7y ago
        Is there not some sort of democratic structure that allows people to have a say in their government? If you took a survey of random Chinese people would they say Xi Xinping is some dictator that they don't want there?
- bllguo 7y ago
  this is an interesting criticism. I would have characterized the Chinese leadership of having a much more long-term outlook than the vast majority of other countries.
  - Caprinicus 7y ago
    They are long term on many things, but not things that concern national pride. It is unclear what threat a semiautonomous HK actually presents to them, beyond just being a bunch of people near Shenzhen who can say mean things about you. It’s not like a rebellion could start there, they would be perfectly happy being left alone.
    - mantap 7y ago
      The threat of HK is that the mainlanders might start wanting some democracy for themselves. In a way China made a mistake asking for HK back. While it was British they had a convenient boogeyman to point to, now it is part of China, Beijing has nowhere to hide, and the only option they have is to destroy it. This will be a painful process for both Beijing and HK.
      - pishpash 7y ago
        There is a genuine fear of social disintegration if democracy were implemented in the mainland. Unfortunately, since Tian'anmen Square, the CPC has lacked leaders with the wisdom and guts to experiment with political reform and so now, HK's 1C2S is a threat that needs to be fire-walled off instead of an opportunity. In terms of political culture, I don't think either side really understands the other.
my_username_is_ 7y ago
I think part of the reason that the number of people protesting has grown over the years is that a lot of the people who would have been protesters left around '97. A new generation has grown up with many basic freedoms and they don't want to give those up... And they don't want to leave HK either. I'm not sure if it's harder to get visas to other countries nowadays, but a lot of people are choosing to stay and fight for their country and their way of life rather than running away.
- ddeck 7y ago
  >And they don't want to leave HK either. I'm not sure if it's harder to get visas to other countries nowadays, but a lot of people are choosing to stay and fight for their country and their way of life rather than running away. That's likely true for many people, but there percentage of people that are so dissatisfied that they want to emigrate is very large - 57% of 18-30 year olds indicated they would emigrate if given the chance in a CUHK survey earlier this year: "Around two-fifths (38.9%) of respondents indicated they would emigrate to other places if they got the chance...younger people (e.g. aged 18-30: 57.0%) had a higher tendency to emigrate.." "Top pushing factors for emigration among those inclined to move were “dissatisfaction with SAR government / government performance / Chief Executive / high-ranking government officials” (11.0%), “overcrowded living conditions” (10.5%), “too much political dispute / social cleavage” (10.3%), and “slow economic growth or bad economic prospect” (10.3%)." https://www.cpr.cuhk.edu.hk/en/press_detail.php?id=2364&t=survey-findings-on-views-on-emigration-from-hong-kong-released-by-hong-kong-institute-of-asia-pacific-studies-at-cuhk https://www.cpr.cuhk.edu.hk/en/press_detail.php?id=2364&t=su...

by tlear 7y ago

JumpCrisscross 7y ago

> their only hope is collapse of PRC Not necessarily. A respectful and long-term oriented Beijing would be fine. (The CPC would need to change, to prevent a dictator-for-life like Xi from re-emerging.) There are a lot of win-win outcomes between the subjugation of Hong Kong and collapse of China.

intrasight 7y ago
Perhaps true in theory, but the practice of history says otherwise. Any anyway, it's not China that going to collapse, but the dictatorial regime.
- whoevercares 7y ago
  Oh so China can survive a regime rotation without collapsing...sorry never happened once in China’s history
  - byw 7y ago
    Depends on how you define a regime. If we can be a bit wishy-washy, Deng rewrote the constitution from scratch and was essentially running it like a new regime, but still paid lip service to Mao to prevent mutiny. A similar change is not unthinkable if Hu/Wen/Li's liberal faction gets in power.
mrobot 7y ago
He's not dictator-for-life, they simply don't have term limits.
- yladiz 7y ago
  In theory yes, but in reality he faces no opposition and so will always be "re-elected".
  - mrobot 7y ago
    Don't they have elections? Maybe the people want him there, then.
    - cm2012 7y ago
      Only high up party members vote in China. And the party controls the count.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - jklp 7y ago
      I'm not 100% across Chinese politics, but from what I understand the Politburo[1] (where the top leaders sit, including Xi) are voted in by the Central Committee [1]. But the Central Committee isn't really an independent body, and the people who sit there are selected by the Politburo - effectively the Politburo members just vote themselves in. (P.s. as mentioned I'm not 100% across the politics in China so happy to be corrected) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politburo_Standing_Committee_of_the_Communist_Party_of_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politburo_Standing_Committee_o... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Committee_of_the_Communist_Party_of_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Committee_of_the_Commu...
    - mrobot 7y ago
      Is there not some sort of democratic structure that allows people to have a say in their government? If you took a survey of random Chinese people would they say Xi Xinping is some dictator that they don't want there?
bllguo 7y ago
this is an interesting criticism. I would have characterized the Chinese leadership of having a much more long-term outlook than the vast majority of other countries.
- Caprinicus 7y ago
  They are long term on many things, but not things that concern national pride. It is unclear what threat a semiautonomous HK actually presents to them, beyond just being a bunch of people near Shenzhen who can say mean things about you. It’s not like a rebellion could start there, they would be perfectly happy being left alone.
  - mantap 7y ago
    The threat of HK is that the mainlanders might start wanting some democracy for themselves. In a way China made a mistake asking for HK back. While it was British they had a convenient boogeyman to point to, now it is part of China, Beijing has nowhere to hide, and the only option they have is to destroy it. This will be a painful process for both Beijing and HK.
    - pishpash 7y ago
      There is a genuine fear of social disintegration if democracy were implemented in the mainland. Unfortunately, since Tian'anmen Square, the CPC has lacked leaders with the wisdom and guts to experiment with political reform and so now, HK's 1C2S is a threat that needs to be fire-walled off instead of an opportunity. In terms of political culture, I don't think either side really understands the other.

my_username_is_ 7y ago

I think part of the reason that the number of people protesting has grown over the years is that a lot of the people who would have been protesters left around '97. A new generation has grown up with many basic freedoms and they don't want to give those up... And they don't want to leave HK either. I'm not sure if it's harder to get visas to other countries nowadays, but a lot of people are choosing to stay and fight for their country and their way of life rather than running away.

ddeck 7y ago
>And they don't want to leave HK either. I'm not sure if it's harder to get visas to other countries nowadays, but a lot of people are choosing to stay and fight for their country and their way of life rather than running away. That's likely true for many people, but there percentage of people that are so dissatisfied that they want to emigrate is very large - 57% of 18-30 year olds indicated they would emigrate if given the chance in a CUHK survey earlier this year: "Around two-fifths (38.9%) of respondents indicated they would emigrate to other places if they got the chance...younger people (e.g. aged 18-30: 57.0%) had a higher tendency to emigrate.." "Top pushing factors for emigration among those inclined to move were “dissatisfaction with SAR government / government performance / Chief Executive / high-ranking government officials” (11.0%), “overcrowded living conditions” (10.5%), “too much political dispute / social cleavage” (10.3%), and “slow economic growth or bad economic prospect” (10.3%)." https://www.cpr.cuhk.edu.hk/en/press_detail.php?id=2364&t=survey-findings-on-views-on-emigration-from-hong-kong-released-by-hong-kong-institute-of-asia-pacific-studies-at-cuhk https://www.cpr.cuhk.edu.hk/en/press_detail.php?id=2364&t=su...