6 ms·

I've experienced a lot of these things since leaving the bay area and moving to Australia. The thing that surprised me most was similar to point #3 - in Austral

by jjcm 7y ago

I've experienced a lot of these things since leaving the bay area and moving to Australia. The thing that surprised me most was similar to point #3 - in Australia the less fortunate are taken care of. One big mental drain I had in America was when my friends were sick but could do nothing about it. I had a roommate in Seattle who had severe dental problems and chronic tooth pain, but could do nothing about it because he simply couldn't afford it. I had another friend who had an oblique fracture in their arm, but set it themselves and never went to the doctor. All because healthcare was not only expensive, but randomly expensive. You never knew if you'd be leaving the hospital with a $100 medical bill or a $10,000 medical bill. I had great healthcare for all of my working career, but my friends often didn't, and it ate at me mentally. In Australia that's never been a point of stress. If you have a cold, you go to the doctor, and you always knew it'd be less than $200ish. There were no orders of magnitude more expensive surprises. The rest of the points resonated highly with me as well, as aside from the maternity leave I've experienced them all. I have to move back to the Bay soon and I'm not looking forward to it. Every time I visit there's more homeless who've been pushed to the streets because the system in place simply doesn't work - Nordic countries, Switzerland, and Australia are simply better in so many aspects. There's a reason why the USA has fallen to #13 in HDI[1] and continues to fall. The people of the USA have too much pride to change - we've been on top for so long that we often think we can't learn from other countries, and that we have everything figured out. The intro speech Jeff Daniels did in Newsroom [2] resonates here. It's time we looked at what policies actually work for the best of the populous. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Dev... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyzDRc34l2g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyzDRc34l2g

ryanackley 7y ago
Same experience and background as you. I worked for Atlassian in Sydney from 2008-2013. I found Australia to be a relative Utopia compared to the USA. After traveling around to other countries and living in Australia, then coming home, I realized that America is one of the most indoctrinated cultures I've experienced. We're indoctrinated with the idea of our own superiority. We can't see how much better other countries are doing modern life.
- krooj 7y ago
  I currently live/work in the Bay Area, but am a Canadian ex-pat. Over the past year, I've had a series of health-related issues which have me chomping at the bit to either move back to Canada or another country which has a sane healthcare system. The issue with the states isn't just that you might go bankrupt over medical bills, I've found that there's also a huge disparity in quality of care. Back in Canada, you'd get the right care for your issue, cost be damned; however, in the states, the quality of care might also depend on who you have access to, per your insurance, which is royally fucked up. Its implicitly correlating the value of human life with earnings - better job? Better insurance. There's more to life than base pay, stocks, and toys you can buy, and the Bay Area has proven to be one big trap and a lie, so over the next year or two, I'll be planning my escape to another country, be it back home, Australia, or somewhere in Europe.
  - hellisothers 7y ago
    Not saying your experience isn’t valid but I’ve had several Canadian friends tell stories the other direction. They were amazed at the level of care they got in the Bay Area as opposed to Canada saying that yes care is available to everybody but you often have to wait a long time and it’s generally mediocre. Grass is greener?
    - raverbashing 7y ago
      Unfortunately "high level of care" is a bit of an ambiguous term It's easy to overdiagnose, push unnecessary procedures or exams or just prescribe the barely more efficient medication but that costs 10x more So, higher level of care is good, sometimes the "base level" can leave you with issues, but most of the time, you just need that aspirine and off time
doubleunplussed 7y ago
Coming from Australia to the US I've had a similar experience, but have been tempted to discount it as just familiarity bias that I prefer Australia. But the more time goes on the more undeniable it seems that Australia is a better place to live regardless of any bias I have toward it. So I have begun to embrace that it's just true that Australia is a better place to live. There's just less day to day friction in life. Taxes are lower (not in the top bracket perhaps, but for almost all people. Even then this sounds false, but add up all the taxes including local and FICA/med and you'll see), and easier to do. Sales taxes are included in prices, there isn't required tipping, speed limits are enforced meaning traffic is smoother and more predictable. Somehow the floor on the quality of goods and services is higher - not choosing exactly what you buy carefully is less likely to result in regret. Democracy is fairly functional. There is lower inequality. Lower crime. Banking and payment systems are better - no cheques, widespread contactless payments, instant, free interbank transfers. Also, ordinary banks implementing these things instead of requiring outside disruption from tech companies, e.g. apple pay/google pay/paypal. Healthcare, of course. Interest free student loans and heavily subsidised undergraduate education, such that someone from a poor background can get a good education (I have a PhD now, and my parents have not paid a cent for my education or living expenses during my education). I would prefer university to be free, but seeing undergrads here in the US, and hearing that practically everyone has support from their parents, it's still a big difference. Government payments for students. I would prefer they were higher, but if you live with enough roommates, it can be enough to pay rent. High minimum wage. Compulsory retirement savings (9%). High salaries generally - if I go back to Australia for the same kind of job I'm in now, the salary will go up by about 30%. Perhaps software development is an exception that is relevant to many people here, but for most jobs salaries in Australia seem higher. Especially at the bottom end. I used to work in retail during undergrad for AU$21 an hour. (pretty much minimum wage plus 20% loading for not having a guaranteed minimum number of hours per week). Lower cost of living generally. I know if you average over the whole US the cost of living is apparently lower than in Australia, but in the DC metro area where I am now it's not my experience. My weekly grocery bill here about 30% higher than in Australia - and the products of worse quality in my opinion (unless I shop at say, wholefoods, then it's twice the cost as in Australia). Notable exceptions: buying a house, beer, cigarettes, electrical bills, video games. I don't mean to say Australia and Australians can necessarily take credit for most of these things, though they can for some. There's an argument that Australia is kind of defecting in a prisoners dilemma or sorts, by enjoying all the technological developments made elsewhere without having contributed that much to it. Or that the single-payer system for drugs pays drug companies so little that while they'll accept the price, they wouldn't have developed the drugs in the first place if Australia were their only buyer. But at the end of it, it's a great place to live.
hollerith 7y ago
>One big mental drain I had in America was when my friends were sick but could do nothing about it It would be nice to know whether a significant fraction of what you describe happened after 2014, which is approximately when the major provisions of Obama's health-care reforms kicked in.

by jjcm 7y ago

ryanackley 7y ago

Same experience and background as you. I worked for Atlassian in Sydney from 2008-2013. I found Australia to be a relative Utopia compared to the USA. After traveling around to other countries and living in Australia, then coming home, I realized that America is one of the most indoctrinated cultures I've experienced. We're indoctrinated with the idea of our own superiority. We can't see how much better other countries are doing modern life.

krooj 7y ago
I currently live/work in the Bay Area, but am a Canadian ex-pat. Over the past year, I've had a series of health-related issues which have me chomping at the bit to either move back to Canada or another country which has a sane healthcare system. The issue with the states isn't just that you might go bankrupt over medical bills, I've found that there's also a huge disparity in quality of care. Back in Canada, you'd get the right care for your issue, cost be damned; however, in the states, the quality of care might also depend on who you have access to, per your insurance, which is royally fucked up. Its implicitly correlating the value of human life with earnings - better job? Better insurance. There's more to life than base pay, stocks, and toys you can buy, and the Bay Area has proven to be one big trap and a lie, so over the next year or two, I'll be planning my escape to another country, be it back home, Australia, or somewhere in Europe.
- hellisothers 7y ago
  Not saying your experience isn’t valid but I’ve had several Canadian friends tell stories the other direction. They were amazed at the level of care they got in the Bay Area as opposed to Canada saying that yes care is available to everybody but you often have to wait a long time and it’s generally mediocre. Grass is greener?
  - raverbashing 7y ago
    Unfortunately "high level of care" is a bit of an ambiguous term It's easy to overdiagnose, push unnecessary procedures or exams or just prescribe the barely more efficient medication but that costs 10x more So, higher level of care is good, sometimes the "base level" can leave you with issues, but most of the time, you just need that aspirine and off time

doubleunplussed 7y ago

Coming from Australia to the US I've had a similar experience, but have been tempted to discount it as just familiarity bias that I prefer Australia. But the more time goes on the more undeniable it seems that Australia is a better place to live regardless of any bias I have toward it. So I have begun to embrace that it's just true that Australia is a better place to live. There's just less day to day friction in life. Taxes are lower (not in the top bracket perhaps, but for almost all people. Even then this sounds false, but add up all the taxes including local and FICA/med and you'll see), and easier to do. Sales taxes are included in prices, there isn't required tipping, speed limits are enforced meaning traffic is smoother and more predictable. Somehow the floor on the quality of goods and services is higher - not choosing exactly what you buy carefully is less likely to result in regret. Democracy is fairly functional. There is lower inequality. Lower crime. Banking and payment systems are better - no cheques, widespread contactless payments, instant, free interbank transfers. Also, ordinary banks implementing these things instead of requiring outside disruption from tech companies, e.g. apple pay/google pay/paypal. Healthcare, of course. Interest free student loans and heavily subsidised undergraduate education, such that someone from a poor background can get a good education (I have a PhD now, and my parents have not paid a cent for my education or living expenses during my education). I would prefer university to be free, but seeing undergrads here in the US, and hearing that practically everyone has support from their parents, it's still a big difference. Government payments for students. I would prefer they were higher, but if you live with enough roommates, it can be enough to pay rent. High minimum wage. Compulsory retirement savings (9%). High salaries generally - if I go back to Australia for the same kind of job I'm in now, the salary will go up by about 30%. Perhaps software development is an exception that is relevant to many people here, but for most jobs salaries in Australia seem higher. Especially at the bottom end. I used to work in retail during undergrad for AU$21 an hour. (pretty much minimum wage plus 20% loading for not having a guaranteed minimum number of hours per week). Lower cost of living generally. I know if you average over the whole US the cost of living is apparently lower than in Australia, but in the DC metro area where I am now it's not my experience. My weekly grocery bill here about 30% higher than in Australia - and the products of worse quality in my opinion (unless I shop at say, wholefoods, then it's twice the cost as in Australia). Notable exceptions: buying a house, beer, cigarettes, electrical bills, video games. I don't mean to say Australia and Australians can necessarily take credit for most of these things, though they can for some. There's an argument that Australia is kind of defecting in a prisoners dilemma or sorts, by enjoying all the technological developments made elsewhere without having contributed that much to it. Or that the single-payer system for drugs pays drug companies so little that while they'll accept the price, they wouldn't have developed the drugs in the first place if Australia were their only buyer. But at the end of it, it's a great place to live.

hollerith 7y ago

>One big mental drain I had in America was when my friends were sick but could do nothing about it It would be nice to know whether a significant fraction of what you describe happened after 2014, which is approximately when the major provisions of Obama's health-care reforms kicked in.