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Sure, but it's also really expensive to live in Switzerland. Not factoring in the cost of living over there is pretty disingenuous. And it's going to be a serio

Sure, but it's also really expensive to live in Switzerland. Not factoring in the cost of living over there is pretty disingenuous. And it's going to be a serious project to get residency there if you're not a Swiss citizen. Edit: This is not an opinion, cost of living in Switzerland is highest in the world, twice as high as in the US. Even if you make twice as much money, you're basically making the same amount. And if food cost that much where I live, you're damn right I'm bringing a sandwich to the office. https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/rankings_by_country.jsp https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/rankings_by_country.js...

llamataboot 7y ago
It's okay, you can sub most any country in Europe in, and still end up with a much more sane work culture than the US.
- mruts 7y ago
  Many people (including myself), don't want a laid back work culture. I want to kill myself for the firm, and work as hard as humanly possible. I think I just derive the most happiness from working (though I do like drinking as well). I know a lot of other people like this. Maybe you can call us brainwashed or whatever, but this is how myself and most of my co-workers are. I don't think it's an accident that America is the most rich and powerful country in the world. Or that American Tech dominant the world (except for China). It's because Americans have a protestant work ethic, they're willing to suffer and kill themselves for greatness. This of course isn't for everyone. But as a highly ambitious person who wants to win no matter the cost, I couldn't imagine ever working in Europe.
  - michaelt 7y ago
    What does your company do, and how do you contribute to it?
    - mruts 7y ago
      I live and work in Africa structuring and programming derivatives for a bank. The bank tries to make money and I try to make the bank money.
  - Tomte 7y ago
    > I don't think it's an accident that America is the most rich and powerful country in the world. Or that American Tech dominant the world (except for China) You were the winners of a World War that left your competitors in scorched ruins, while you hadn't suffered much physical damage. In the multi-stranded bundle of reasons for American dominance, this is the big one.
    - jpttsn 7y ago
      Why did they win the war?
      - roystonvassey 7y ago
        Because of the Russians?
        moosey 7y ago
        I mean, it's not 100% true but the actions of Russia during WW2 make this pretty true, and the fact that it seems the US intentionally stayed out of the way to inflict as much damage on Soviet Russia as it could before we got involved. There is no situation where you look at the number of deaths in the war and judge their massive suffering of the Soviet people as anything other than key in the defeat of Nazi Germany. I'm not about to say that the non aggression pact wasn't a problem, but WW2 finds lots of organizations in the same boat that we can attack in the same way. It was an old system where bodies and land meant power, a system that is really dying.
        gumby 7y ago
        The Americans chose a master of logistics (Eisenhower) as the supreme commander in Europe, and indeed delayed invasion by a year to minimize casualties and retain control of territory once conquered. That it caused more privation for the Russians was considered a convenient side effect, not a primary aspect. The US was hardly hurt by the war at all, suffering comparatively few casualties; as their states were never actually attacked their primary contribution in Europe was to ship material from their factories to Russia and the other allies. Factories which after the war switched back to making commercial goods. The war in the Pacific was a different matter, but again, only some US colonies were attacked and civilian suffering even in those territories was nothing compared to what other countries had to deal with.
  - lagg 7y ago
    I think the downvotes (that's what gray means right?) are people's way of saying that the personal narrative that defines your life is so boring that your job is the only place you can achieve feelings like that. I feel bad for you so won't downvote. But I'd suggest finding something for that narrative that doesn't coincidentally mean handing your life over to the guy you work for. He certainly won't complain that your sense of worth is defined by the firm. It's a lopsided semi-co-dependent relationship and kinda weird. I know people like yourself and respect the ethic but there's surely a way to direct that to your own life instead of defining the satisfaction by how well you make another guy money. Also, the exceptionalism is needless, generalized and is talking down to foreigners as if they don't have similar work ethics. You're not making us look good as Americans by claiming that you'll bend over backwards for bossman and break your back doing so in order to spend an extra dollar at the company store.
    - fizzledbits 7y ago
      Most of us admire artists and musicians who have totally devoted themselves to their craft, and we don’t condescendingly pity their “unhealthy work life balance”. My hero growing up was Feynman, who was doing physics every waking hour (or so I’ve read). It’s not like his estate is going to reap the economic benefits of his work; so was Feynman a pitiful sucker, abused by his university employers? Is it my responsibility not to become too passionate about my work so that I don’t somehow exacerbate the class tensions in our country? I really don’t understand the logic of your comment and most of the others downvoters. He never said his ambition was to make another guy money; perhaps he’s making a lot of it himself, or regards the money as to some extent incidental. The comments about America aren’t in the best taste, but that doesn’t make it okay to put words in his mouth.
      - wool_gather 7y ago
        Here's one possible take on the difference of perspective. There's a distinction to be made in the nature of the output. Feynman's physics work was investigating nature on behalf of humanity. What artists produce is spiritually/intellectually/emotionally edifying for other people. Contrast this with OP's [killing themselves to make a rich banker richer][0], or, say, working on the next addictive mobile game. This is putting things in the strongest possible light, of course: Feynman also worked on the bomb. Artists can be navel-gazers. And some people break their backs working for a company that is "curing cancer". So it's not black and white. [0]:https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20196385 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20196385
  - boudin 7y ago
    Just so you know usa is ranked 10 in GDP. I don't think being the richest means much, but USA is not the richest https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PP...
    - fastball 7y ago
      Pretty disingenuous to say GDP when you mean GDP PPP. The US does have the highest GDP (by a large margin).
      - boudin 7y ago
        Fine by me, but it's meaningless since it's not adjusted. And anyway, still not the case https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(no...
        fastball 7y ago
        You're really not very good at this. GDP per capita is not the same as GDP. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nomi...
        boudin 7y ago
        To remind you, it's a post about working in another country, the GDP makes even less sense in this context if you don't put it per capita.
        fastball 7y ago
        You were presumably responding to "America is the most rich and powerful country in the world", since that is the only relevant portion of the comment you replied to where interjecting a comment about GDP would make any sense at all. The US, as a nation, has the highest GDP, and therefore is the wealthiest nation in the world. The individual wealth of Americans is lower than some other countries (but not many), but that is hardly relevant in a discussion about the wealthiest country. If OC had said "Americans are the richest people in the world", you would be right. But OC did not, and being deliberately obtuse does not change that.
  - arkades 7y ago
    > Many people (including myself), don't want a laid back work culture. I want to kill myself for the firm, and work as hard as humanly possible. I think I just derive the most happiness from working (though I do like drinking as well). I know a lot of other people like this. Maybe you can call us brainwashed or whatever, but this is how myself and most of my co-workers are. You have confused your carefully selected sample (assorted by profession, employee preferences, and employer preferences) for the general population. That is a mistake.
  - a_hausb 7y ago
    You do you, but be sure that once you do kill yourself, your company will have you replaced within a week. That kind of loyalty only goes one way.
  - fizzledbits 7y ago
    I and my closet colleagues have the same attitude and can’t exactly say where it comes from. I feel incredibly lucky that my work is capable of fascinating me, and I want to become as good at it as I’m capable of being. A big part of that is the subject matter, and getting to work with (build software tools for) artists and sound designers. It probably helps that the work is a well rounded social-creative-technical experience much of the time. Once I stopped seeing myself as a repository of generic, commoditized skills for sale, and found an actual purpose, the sort of ‘employee mentality’ I used to have vanished and my relationship to work became simpler and more gratifying...and I work a lot harder. And yes, I also get paid a lot more, although that came later and I don’t regard that as a requirement - would much sooner give up the money than the passion. I’ve seen a similar transition happen in others. To some of the downvoters: we all admire artists and musicians who have totally devoted themselves to their craft, and we don’t condescendingly pity their “unhealthy work life balance”. My hero growing up was Feynman, who was doing physics every waking hour (or so I’ve read). It’s not like his estate is going to reap the economic benefits of his work; so was Feynman a pitiful sucker, abused by his university employers? Why does someone else’s ambition anger you so much?
  - EliRivers 7y ago
    as a highly ambitious person who wants to win no matter the cost This seems at odds with "I want to kill myself for the firm, and work as hard as humanly possible". That is losing, not winning.
  - nobodyandproud 7y ago
    This is fine if you own your own business; or if you’re taking a chance to strike gold through an IPO; or if a fat bonus is waiting for a killer performance; or the chance for highly paid advancement is real. Then yeah, that makes sense. Except that this isn’t for everyone and these opportunities are not even common to begin with. So for regular jobs demanding that the average worker put in 60+ hours a week, with no share of the profits, while senior members of the firm take in millions or more, with intrusive weekends and lack of friends&family time? The correct response is an honest Glassdoor review and a go-fuck-yourself to management.
  - na85 7y ago
    >Many people (including myself), don't want a laid back work culture. I want to kill myself for the firm, and work as hard as humanly possible. I think I just derive the most happiness from working (though I do like drinking as well). This was really sad to read.
  - projectileboy 7y ago
    The way you feel isn’t unusual; many Americans feel this way. Then you get older, or sick, or both, and the system you loved so much and gave so much to will discard you like a piece of trash, without even a second thought. And at that point you may begin to feel differently. But enjoy the feeling while you can - it will not last forever.
  - esjeon 7y ago
    I'm rolling on the floor, kiddo. First of all, such aggressive attitude is certainly not sustainable. Once you break down, the firm will simply replace you with someone else. A professional is someone who functions reliably and efficiently, not some self-acclaimed rockstars who blindly charge into every random things. Such have never been a key factor in businesses. I would call you and your co-workers mere kids in that sense. facepalm America became rich mainly because of its geopolitical advantages. Were you sleeping in your history class? America isn't tech dominant if you're talking outside IT. Protestant work ethic? Americans are lazy cockroaches compared to Asians. Greatness? Nazi was also after its own greatness. Ambitious? People like you are merely covering up their own existential crisis with something fancy, like being rich, being a winner, being better, living up to others' expectation, etc. Ambition became such a low thing these days, eh? You lack vision, kiddo. You don't have clear vision of your life. All you're saying is, if you try hard, you'll live a good life. That's the last thing you should believe.
    - dang 7y ago
      Personal attacks and flamewar will get you banned here. Please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and don't post like this to HN.
  - thewileyone 7y ago
    " ... as a highly ambitious person who wants to win no matter the cost, I couldn't imagine ever working in Europe. " You can be highly ambitious and work in a balanced culture and still be successful. The fact that you think ambition and work-life balance are mutually exclusive is pretty sad.
adamnemecek 7y ago
The point isn't that all of america should move to Switzerland but that America can take some Swiss ideas and implement them here. In Switzerland, your neighborhood votes on whether you should become a citizen.
- floaters 7y ago
  >In Switzerland, your neighborhood votes on whether you should become a citizen. I didn't know that. That's very cool. You're also the only person who's right about the point of the article. It seems like most people here didn't read it yet responded with half-cocked tribalism. That said implementation would be difficult. The youngest voting block would need to be inspired en masse to participate in local government. Municipal and County first, then State. That would be a realistic source of change. The current status quo has no incentive to implement changes like this. The other hurdle is that even at a local level America has a brand of corruption that blocks this sort of progress if it doesn't have enough popular momentum. It's not just political. It's related to taxes and how money is moved around and handled that the article hints at. For example, America has a lot of small businesses that sell many different things but their one real job is cleaning money. There's also the fact that historically American culture is more competitive and exclusive socially than places like Switzerland. Getting people here to work together and look beyond their differences for something that's just practical problem solving is easier said than done.
- masonic 7y ago
  In Switzerland, your neighborhood votes on whether you should become a citizen. In the USA, you'd be vilified as a NIMBY for far less.
geff82 7y ago
The cost of living in relative terms, compared to average salaries, is actually rather low. Rents, food is all really expensive judging from the numbers, but you get to keep a larger amount. Switzlerland is expensive for tourists - but for citizens not so much.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- hollerith 7y ago
  So the starting salary for software developers in Switzerland is higher than that in the US?
  - geff82 7y ago
    I can not tell for the starter salary, but 100000-120000$ is rather the norm (say it was offered to me without any haggling) and contractors (short term employees) make around 150k-250k.
  - komali2 7y ago
    Reductionist question. If you're goal is to get someone to "admit" that a software engineer can get paid more in San Francisco than Switzerland, I guess you've won your argument. You can still tell yourself America is the Best Country in the World™. But as the article indicates, the net worth of the average Swiss is twice that of the average American. The Swiss have found a way to leverage a higher tax rate to less out of pocket cost for their citizens. So you get 20000$ more bucks a year as an American, and then you go ahead and spend it on health insurance or driving a car everywhere.
    - geff82 7y ago
      Besides San Francisco and New York I also think that the average software developer gets paid a lot more in Switzerland, especially tons more than in surrounding countries. The only caveat is that you are usually expected to speak German and/or french (there are jobs without that requirement, but one of those two languages will really make your life a lot easier).
SlowRobotAhead 7y ago
>Not factoring in the cost of living over there is pretty disingenuous. A Vox article not showing the whole picture... you don’t say! ;)
eps 7y ago
US and Canadian citizens can get Permit C (unconditional residency permit) after 5 years on Permit B (employment-bound permit). Citizenship is 5 more years after that. For EU citizens I think it's even simpler. For all other countries it's 10+10 years.
- Youden 7y ago
  > US and Canadian citizens can get Permit C (unconditional residency permit) after 5 years on Permit B (employment-bound permit). 5 years satisfies the time requirement for American and Canadian citizens (and certain other countries) but they still have to satify the other requirements, the most burdensome of which is learning the local language. In Zürich, you have to learn A2 level German specifically (which actually isn't too hard) but this varies by canton. > Citizenship is 5 more years after that. Mostly, just note that in addition, you have to have been living in the canton and commune in which you want to obtain citizenship for a certain amount of time. Also, integration is a requirement for citizenship. What this means varies by commune but the main thing is that you've learned an official language to a working level (B1 I think). > For all other countries it's 10+10 years. As a third country national you can obtain a residence permit (C) within 5 years by integration. Integration mainly means learning the local language to a particular level, which varies by canton (in Zürich it's B1 German). I believe time spent living on a B permit counts towards citizenship so you can do it in 5+5 no matter where you're from, just like the US.
- ScottFree 7y ago
  In theory. I looked into emigrating to Switzerland a few years ago and I was told that getting a work permit was nearly impossible as a US citizen. Swiss companies have to prove that they can't find an EU passport holder with the expertise necessary for the job before they can hire an American or any other non-EU passport holder. Unless something has changed?
  - snovv_crash 7y ago
    What that really means is that they need to have a job ad open for 3 months that they didn't hire someone else into before they can justify hiring a non-EU citizen. It helps if you're doing something specialized or have some intersection of skills for the justification, but it isn't insurmountable, just hard enough so that they only get the people who really want it.
kyleblarson 7y ago
Well, this is a Vox article we're talking about.
komali2 7y ago
Correct, yet the average swiss citizen has twice has much net worth, so I guess the higher cost of living doesn't result in less money in their pocket.
- kyledrake 7y ago
  I mean yeah, Switzerland is a great place to live if you're rich.
  - komali2 7y ago
    It's also a great place to live if you're not rich, because of their incredible welfare system compared to our own.
runarberg 7y ago
Anecdote. I came to America from Iceland two years ago and I would say: “It’s complicated”. When I arrived I received much higher salary combined with a lower cost of living, more cultural variety, etc. But at the same time I left behind 4 weeks of paid vacation, 9 months of maternity/paternity leave, free education, a public health insurance, etc.
thefounder 7y ago
If you are a EU citizen you have the same rights as a native swiss citizen so the path to citizenship(if you really want it) might be easier.
Broken_Hippo 7y ago
It is extremely difficult to calculate cost of living. Sure, I might pay more in VAT, but if I'm also not stressed out about paying high medical bills and getting, in general, more money, the higher cost of living isn't so bad. For that higher cost of living, you get real benefits and a real safety net. You get none of that in the US. You might actually lose benefits if you switch states, and even when you do gain it isn't generally because everyone gets those benefits, but simply that you get them from one particular company as long as you don't get sick and get fired.
simonebrunozzi 7y ago
The single metric of "cost of living by country" is misrepresenting reality in certain areas, let me tell you why. USA on average is cheaper than Switzerland, sure. You are correct on that front. But you never live "in a country", you live in a specific city! Try comparing Bay Area with Switzerland, or even better, San Francisco with Zurich, and you'll get a very different picture. Let's look at it quickly. One of the most important metrics to determine real cost of living is "Cost per square foot" (or square meter) to buy a house/apartment in the city center. San Francisco and Zurich are both at ~$1,200 per square foot [0], but San Francisco is more expensive on pretty much any other metric, and remember that home prices are affected (reduced) by a much higher property tax in San Francisco compared to Zurich. Renting a 1-bedroom in downtown SF is at ~$3,410, compared to a bit more than half (!) in Zurich at ~$1,790. [0]. In 2019, San Francisco displaced Zurich as the city with the highest salaries [1, page 8]. So, to summarize: San Francisco is actually more expensive than Zurich. [0]: https://www.numbeo.com/property-investment/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+States&country2=Switzerland&city1=San+Francisco%2C+CA&city2=Zurich&tracking=getDispatchComparison https://www.numbeo.com/property-investment/compare_cities.js... [1]: https://www.dbresearch.com/PROD/RPS_EN-PROD/PROD0000000000494405.pdf https://www.dbresearch.com/PROD/RPS_EN-PROD/PROD000000000049...

llamataboot 7y ago

It's okay, you can sub most any country in Europe in, and still end up with a much more sane work culture than the US.

mruts 7y ago
Many people (including myself), don't want a laid back work culture. I want to kill myself for the firm, and work as hard as humanly possible. I think I just derive the most happiness from working (though I do like drinking as well). I know a lot of other people like this. Maybe you can call us brainwashed or whatever, but this is how myself and most of my co-workers are. I don't think it's an accident that America is the most rich and powerful country in the world. Or that American Tech dominant the world (except for China). It's because Americans have a protestant work ethic, they're willing to suffer and kill themselves for greatness. This of course isn't for everyone. But as a highly ambitious person who wants to win no matter the cost, I couldn't imagine ever working in Europe.
- michaelt 7y ago
  What does your company do, and how do you contribute to it?
  - mruts 7y ago
    I live and work in Africa structuring and programming derivatives for a bank. The bank tries to make money and I try to make the bank money.
- Tomte 7y ago
  > I don't think it's an accident that America is the most rich and powerful country in the world. Or that American Tech dominant the world (except for China) You were the winners of a World War that left your competitors in scorched ruins, while you hadn't suffered much physical damage. In the multi-stranded bundle of reasons for American dominance, this is the big one.
  - jpttsn 7y ago
    Why did they win the war?
    - roystonvassey 7y ago
      Because of the Russians?
      - moosey 7y ago
        I mean, it's not 100% true but the actions of Russia during WW2 make this pretty true, and the fact that it seems the US intentionally stayed out of the way to inflict as much damage on Soviet Russia as it could before we got involved. There is no situation where you look at the number of deaths in the war and judge their massive suffering of the Soviet people as anything other than key in the defeat of Nazi Germany. I'm not about to say that the non aggression pact wasn't a problem, but WW2 finds lots of organizations in the same boat that we can attack in the same way. It was an old system where bodies and land meant power, a system that is really dying.
        gumby 7y ago
        The Americans chose a master of logistics (Eisenhower) as the supreme commander in Europe, and indeed delayed invasion by a year to minimize casualties and retain control of territory once conquered. That it caused more privation for the Russians was considered a convenient side effect, not a primary aspect. The US was hardly hurt by the war at all, suffering comparatively few casualties; as their states were never actually attacked their primary contribution in Europe was to ship material from their factories to Russia and the other allies. Factories which after the war switched back to making commercial goods. The war in the Pacific was a different matter, but again, only some US colonies were attacked and civilian suffering even in those territories was nothing compared to what other countries had to deal with.
- lagg 7y ago
  I think the downvotes (that's what gray means right?) are people's way of saying that the personal narrative that defines your life is so boring that your job is the only place you can achieve feelings like that. I feel bad for you so won't downvote. But I'd suggest finding something for that narrative that doesn't coincidentally mean handing your life over to the guy you work for. He certainly won't complain that your sense of worth is defined by the firm. It's a lopsided semi-co-dependent relationship and kinda weird. I know people like yourself and respect the ethic but there's surely a way to direct that to your own life instead of defining the satisfaction by how well you make another guy money. Also, the exceptionalism is needless, generalized and is talking down to foreigners as if they don't have similar work ethics. You're not making us look good as Americans by claiming that you'll bend over backwards for bossman and break your back doing so in order to spend an extra dollar at the company store.
  - fizzledbits 7y ago
    Most of us admire artists and musicians who have totally devoted themselves to their craft, and we don’t condescendingly pity their “unhealthy work life balance”. My hero growing up was Feynman, who was doing physics every waking hour (or so I’ve read). It’s not like his estate is going to reap the economic benefits of his work; so was Feynman a pitiful sucker, abused by his university employers? Is it my responsibility not to become too passionate about my work so that I don’t somehow exacerbate the class tensions in our country? I really don’t understand the logic of your comment and most of the others downvoters. He never said his ambition was to make another guy money; perhaps he’s making a lot of it himself, or regards the money as to some extent incidental. The comments about America aren’t in the best taste, but that doesn’t make it okay to put words in his mouth.
    - wool_gather 7y ago
      Here's one possible take on the difference of perspective. There's a distinction to be made in the nature of the output. Feynman's physics work was investigating nature on behalf of humanity. What artists produce is spiritually/intellectually/emotionally edifying for other people. Contrast this with OP's [killing themselves to make a rich banker richer][0], or, say, working on the next addictive mobile game. This is putting things in the strongest possible light, of course: Feynman also worked on the bomb. Artists can be navel-gazers. And some people break their backs working for a company that is "curing cancer". So it's not black and white. [0]:https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20196385 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20196385
- boudin 7y ago
  Just so you know usa is ranked 10 in GDP. I don't think being the richest means much, but USA is not the richest https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PP...
  - fastball 7y ago
    Pretty disingenuous to say GDP when you mean GDP PPP. The US does have the highest GDP (by a large margin).
    - boudin 7y ago
      Fine by me, but it's meaningless since it's not adjusted. And anyway, still not the case https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(no...
      - fastball 7y ago
        You're really not very good at this. GDP per capita is not the same as GDP. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nomi...
        boudin 7y ago
        To remind you, it's a post about working in another country, the GDP makes even less sense in this context if you don't put it per capita.
        fastball 7y ago
        You were presumably responding to "America is the most rich and powerful country in the world", since that is the only relevant portion of the comment you replied to where interjecting a comment about GDP would make any sense at all. The US, as a nation, has the highest GDP, and therefore is the wealthiest nation in the world. The individual wealth of Americans is lower than some other countries (but not many), but that is hardly relevant in a discussion about the wealthiest country. If OC had said "Americans are the richest people in the world", you would be right. But OC did not, and being deliberately obtuse does not change that.
- arkades 7y ago
  > Many people (including myself), don't want a laid back work culture. I want to kill myself for the firm, and work as hard as humanly possible. I think I just derive the most happiness from working (though I do like drinking as well). I know a lot of other people like this. Maybe you can call us brainwashed or whatever, but this is how myself and most of my co-workers are. You have confused your carefully selected sample (assorted by profession, employee preferences, and employer preferences) for the general population. That is a mistake.
- a_hausb 7y ago
  You do you, but be sure that once you do kill yourself, your company will have you replaced within a week. That kind of loyalty only goes one way.
- fizzledbits 7y ago
  I and my closet colleagues have the same attitude and can’t exactly say where it comes from. I feel incredibly lucky that my work is capable of fascinating me, and I want to become as good at it as I’m capable of being. A big part of that is the subject matter, and getting to work with (build software tools for) artists and sound designers. It probably helps that the work is a well rounded social-creative-technical experience much of the time. Once I stopped seeing myself as a repository of generic, commoditized skills for sale, and found an actual purpose, the sort of ‘employee mentality’ I used to have vanished and my relationship to work became simpler and more gratifying...and I work a lot harder. And yes, I also get paid a lot more, although that came later and I don’t regard that as a requirement - would much sooner give up the money than the passion. I’ve seen a similar transition happen in others. To some of the downvoters: we all admire artists and musicians who have totally devoted themselves to their craft, and we don’t condescendingly pity their “unhealthy work life balance”. My hero growing up was Feynman, who was doing physics every waking hour (or so I’ve read). It’s not like his estate is going to reap the economic benefits of his work; so was Feynman a pitiful sucker, abused by his university employers? Why does someone else’s ambition anger you so much?
- EliRivers 7y ago
  as a highly ambitious person who wants to win no matter the cost This seems at odds with "I want to kill myself for the firm, and work as hard as humanly possible". That is losing, not winning.
- nobodyandproud 7y ago
  This is fine if you own your own business; or if you’re taking a chance to strike gold through an IPO; or if a fat bonus is waiting for a killer performance; or the chance for highly paid advancement is real. Then yeah, that makes sense. Except that this isn’t for everyone and these opportunities are not even common to begin with. So for regular jobs demanding that the average worker put in 60+ hours a week, with no share of the profits, while senior members of the firm take in millions or more, with intrusive weekends and lack of friends&family time? The correct response is an honest Glassdoor review and a go-fuck-yourself to management.
- na85 7y ago
  >Many people (including myself), don't want a laid back work culture. I want to kill myself for the firm, and work as hard as humanly possible. I think I just derive the most happiness from working (though I do like drinking as well). This was really sad to read.
- projectileboy 7y ago
  The way you feel isn’t unusual; many Americans feel this way. Then you get older, or sick, or both, and the system you loved so much and gave so much to will discard you like a piece of trash, without even a second thought. And at that point you may begin to feel differently. But enjoy the feeling while you can - it will not last forever.
- esjeon 7y ago
  I'm rolling on the floor, kiddo. First of all, such aggressive attitude is certainly not sustainable. Once you break down, the firm will simply replace you with someone else. A professional is someone who functions reliably and efficiently, not some self-acclaimed rockstars who blindly charge into every random things. Such have never been a key factor in businesses. I would call you and your co-workers mere kids in that sense. facepalm America became rich mainly because of its geopolitical advantages. Were you sleeping in your history class? America isn't tech dominant if you're talking outside IT. Protestant work ethic? Americans are lazy cockroaches compared to Asians. Greatness? Nazi was also after its own greatness. Ambitious? People like you are merely covering up their own existential crisis with something fancy, like being rich, being a winner, being better, living up to others' expectation, etc. Ambition became such a low thing these days, eh? You lack vision, kiddo. You don't have clear vision of your life. All you're saying is, if you try hard, you'll live a good life. That's the last thing you should believe.
  - dang 7y ago
    Personal attacks and flamewar will get you banned here. Please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and don't post like this to HN.
- thewileyone 7y ago
  " ... as a highly ambitious person who wants to win no matter the cost, I couldn't imagine ever working in Europe. " You can be highly ambitious and work in a balanced culture and still be successful. The fact that you think ambition and work-life balance are mutually exclusive is pretty sad.

adamnemecek 7y ago

The point isn't that all of america should move to Switzerland but that America can take some Swiss ideas and implement them here. In Switzerland, your neighborhood votes on whether you should become a citizen.

floaters 7y ago
>In Switzerland, your neighborhood votes on whether you should become a citizen. I didn't know that. That's very cool. You're also the only person who's right about the point of the article. It seems like most people here didn't read it yet responded with half-cocked tribalism. That said implementation would be difficult. The youngest voting block would need to be inspired en masse to participate in local government. Municipal and County first, then State. That would be a realistic source of change. The current status quo has no incentive to implement changes like this. The other hurdle is that even at a local level America has a brand of corruption that blocks this sort of progress if it doesn't have enough popular momentum. It's not just political. It's related to taxes and how money is moved around and handled that the article hints at. For example, America has a lot of small businesses that sell many different things but their one real job is cleaning money. There's also the fact that historically American culture is more competitive and exclusive socially than places like Switzerland. Getting people here to work together and look beyond their differences for something that's just practical problem solving is easier said than done.
masonic 7y ago
In Switzerland, your neighborhood votes on whether you should become a citizen. In the USA, you'd be vilified as a NIMBY for far less.

geff82 7y ago

The cost of living in relative terms, compared to average salaries, is actually rather low. Rents, food is all really expensive judging from the numbers, but you get to keep a larger amount. Switzlerland is expensive for tourists - but for citizens not so much.

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hollerith 7y ago
So the starting salary for software developers in Switzerland is higher than that in the US?
- geff82 7y ago
  I can not tell for the starter salary, but 100000-120000$ is rather the norm (say it was offered to me without any haggling) and contractors (short term employees) make around 150k-250k.
- komali2 7y ago
  Reductionist question. If you're goal is to get someone to "admit" that a software engineer can get paid more in San Francisco than Switzerland, I guess you've won your argument. You can still tell yourself America is the Best Country in the World™. But as the article indicates, the net worth of the average Swiss is twice that of the average American. The Swiss have found a way to leverage a higher tax rate to less out of pocket cost for their citizens. So you get 20000$ more bucks a year as an American, and then you go ahead and spend it on health insurance or driving a car everywhere.
  - geff82 7y ago
    Besides San Francisco and New York I also think that the average software developer gets paid a lot more in Switzerland, especially tons more than in surrounding countries. The only caveat is that you are usually expected to speak German and/or french (there are jobs without that requirement, but one of those two languages will really make your life a lot easier).

SlowRobotAhead 7y ago

>Not factoring in the cost of living over there is pretty disingenuous. A Vox article not showing the whole picture... you don’t say! ;)

eps 7y ago

US and Canadian citizens can get Permit C (unconditional residency permit) after 5 years on Permit B (employment-bound permit). Citizenship is 5 more years after that. For EU citizens I think it's even simpler. For all other countries it's 10+10 years.

Youden 7y ago
> US and Canadian citizens can get Permit C (unconditional residency permit) after 5 years on Permit B (employment-bound permit). 5 years satisfies the time requirement for American and Canadian citizens (and certain other countries) but they still have to satify the other requirements, the most burdensome of which is learning the local language. In Zürich, you have to learn A2 level German specifically (which actually isn't too hard) but this varies by canton. > Citizenship is 5 more years after that. Mostly, just note that in addition, you have to have been living in the canton and commune in which you want to obtain citizenship for a certain amount of time. Also, integration is a requirement for citizenship. What this means varies by commune but the main thing is that you've learned an official language to a working level (B1 I think). > For all other countries it's 10+10 years. As a third country national you can obtain a residence permit (C) within 5 years by integration. Integration mainly means learning the local language to a particular level, which varies by canton (in Zürich it's B1 German). I believe time spent living on a B permit counts towards citizenship so you can do it in 5+5 no matter where you're from, just like the US.
ScottFree 7y ago
In theory. I looked into emigrating to Switzerland a few years ago and I was told that getting a work permit was nearly impossible as a US citizen. Swiss companies have to prove that they can't find an EU passport holder with the expertise necessary for the job before they can hire an American or any other non-EU passport holder. Unless something has changed?
- snovv_crash 7y ago
  What that really means is that they need to have a job ad open for 3 months that they didn't hire someone else into before they can justify hiring a non-EU citizen. It helps if you're doing something specialized or have some intersection of skills for the justification, but it isn't insurmountable, just hard enough so that they only get the people who really want it.

kyleblarson 7y ago

Well, this is a Vox article we're talking about.

komali2 7y ago

Correct, yet the average swiss citizen has twice has much net worth, so I guess the higher cost of living doesn't result in less money in their pocket.

kyledrake 7y ago
I mean yeah, Switzerland is a great place to live if you're rich.
- komali2 7y ago
  It's also a great place to live if you're not rich, because of their incredible welfare system compared to our own.

runarberg 7y ago

Anecdote. I came to America from Iceland two years ago and I would say: “It’s complicated”. When I arrived I received much higher salary combined with a lower cost of living, more cultural variety, etc. But at the same time I left behind 4 weeks of paid vacation, 9 months of maternity/paternity leave, free education, a public health insurance, etc.

thefounder 7y ago

If you are a EU citizen you have the same rights as a native swiss citizen so the path to citizenship(if you really want it) might be easier.

Broken_Hippo 7y ago

It is extremely difficult to calculate cost of living. Sure, I might pay more in VAT, but if I'm also not stressed out about paying high medical bills and getting, in general, more money, the higher cost of living isn't so bad. For that higher cost of living, you get real benefits and a real safety net. You get none of that in the US. You might actually lose benefits if you switch states, and even when you do gain it isn't generally because everyone gets those benefits, but simply that you get them from one particular company as long as you don't get sick and get fired.

simonebrunozzi 7y ago

The single metric of "cost of living by country" is misrepresenting reality in certain areas, let me tell you why. USA on average is cheaper than Switzerland, sure. You are correct on that front. But you never live "in a country", you live in a specific city! Try comparing Bay Area with Switzerland, or even better, San Francisco with Zurich, and you'll get a very different picture. Let's look at it quickly. One of the most important metrics to determine real cost of living is "Cost per square foot" (or square meter) to buy a house/apartment in the city center. San Francisco and Zurich are both at ~$1,200 per square foot [0], but San Francisco is more expensive on pretty much any other metric, and remember that home prices are affected (reduced) by a much higher property tax in San Francisco compared to Zurich. Renting a 1-bedroom in downtown SF is at ~$3,410, compared to a bit more than half (!) in Zurich at ~$1,790. [0]. In 2019, San Francisco displaced Zurich as the city with the highest salaries [1, page 8]. So, to summarize: San Francisco is actually more expensive than Zurich. [0]: https://www.numbeo.com/property-investment/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+States&country2=Switzerland&city1=San+Francisco%2C+CA&city2=Zurich&tracking=getDispatchComparison https://www.numbeo.com/property-investment/compare_cities.js... [1]: https://www.dbresearch.com/PROD/RPS_EN-PROD/PROD0000000000494405.pdf https://www.dbresearch.com/PROD/RPS_EN-PROD/PROD000000000049...